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F.B.N. Has Said Almost Every Point In Declassified Report

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by IcyPatriot, Sep 27, 2006.

  1. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    Nothing like tooting your own horn...and like i always say, i could care less what people think...because I know WTF I am talking about...it's never been my opinion...it's just the way it is.

    So: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060926/D8KCPV0O2.html


    While I'm on my pedastal...remember F.B.N. and even when he was FootBallNut said watch the documents declassify right around October and November of 2006....it's happening. Aunt Pelosi wanted a closed door session...they have enlisted Clinton's help...Rove led him right into the trap. Condi eats a little crow but Clinton has been drawn into the dragon's lair and the conservatives are poised to pounce.
    BTW...Carville and a few other prominent democrats have been warning you can't just run on being anti-Bush and anti-G.O.P. ... now, with so little time left the democrats are in a huge bind. without cracking on Bush...they have nothing....so stupid, so lame...time for a 3rd party...at least we'll have intelligence in 2 out of the 3 parties. Too bad really...I like moderate and conservative democrats. Survival of the fittest has doomed them to failure...Liberals are rabid survivalists...there's always more blood to drink out there, it's easy when you're on the ground already. :rofl: WAKE UP...PEOPLE FIRST AND LAME IDEALISM LAST...THE PEOPLE WILL WIN BECAUSE SUBSTANCE HAS OVERTAKEN FDR SYMBOLISM...those days are over and tired.
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2006
  2. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I have read interpretations of this released document on several sources from both sides of the aisle...all seem to have painted a pretty grim picture of what has transpired, not sure why Bush released it as it does nothing for them. To release 4 selected pages of a 30 page document does very little for the support of Iraqnam. Not sure I understand all that you are saying, but here is one question I have for you...

    If we did not invade Iraq would this report make the same claim?
  3. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    How about, if radicals didn't attack the US on 9/11, would be be in Iraq, or even in Afghanistan?


    I've read the report and am mystified as to what it says that wouldn't already be known by anyone with a brain, and an objective view. Should anyone be surprised that our invovlement in Iraq would incite radicals to join the fight against us? When radical islam attacked us on 9/11, did it not help rally americans against radical islam? In reading the report, it looks like something a teenager would submit as a school assignment. I really can't understand what is so alarming in the report. Iraq is not a quick fix. Anyone with a brain should know that. Iraq is part of a long term strategy which is aimed at changing the political structure, and hence the social mind set, of the current ME.
  4. scout

    scout Rookie

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    #15 Jersey

    Having said that, wouldn't it just be better to dramatically upgrade our security and enforcement of our borders and find an alternative energy source. After all, the arguments always comes back to oil.
  5. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Better? No. How does that solve the problem? Radicals have been attacking us for decades. Keeping it to policing and law enforcement is exactly what Slick Willy did post the '93 WTC attack in NY. Where did that get us? I think the capabilities of the enemies of freedom, and this means rogue nations like N.Korea and Iran too, are expanding exponentially as technological advances become more freely available. All the policing in the world will not stop 100% of planned attacks on our country. It's why I understand what we are trying to do in Iraq.

    As for oil, it's certainly a part of the issue, no doubt, which makes me wonder why so many in this country are so opposed to harvesting our own supply.
  6. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Waiting to get hit again isn't a solution. When someone has declared war on you you are at war. War is a frim dirty business, but if someone wants to take you out you don't have a choice.

    A agree on energy independence. It is too bad that the left in this country has opposed every attempt to develop our fossil fuel resources over the past 25 years. Tey getting a refinery built of drilling for oil. And nuke power, forget it. We do need energy to allow our economy to function and provide for all of us. Too bad we aren't willing to be realistic about it.
  7. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm not really sure what you're talking about F.B.N. I don't think we've really talked about those issues. The standard liberal line is that Al Qaeda is an awful, reactionary group that needs to be defeated, but Bush's approach is making matters worse. I've never denied that the terrorists want to establish fundamentalist governments. After all, that's what they've been saying all along.

    The issue of dispute is, How do you defeat the terrorists? You favor military methods; I favor nonmilitary methods, though I support police-type actions and targeted attacks. I've said all along that the more we engage Al Qaeda in a military conflict, the more we give them a raison d'etre.

    You might need to toot your own horn, but the fact is just about everything you posted are the reasons liberals have opposed the war from almost the start.

    So, let's look at each of the lines I presume you quote:

    "The increased role of Iraqis in opposing al-Qaida in Iraq might lead the terror group's veteran foreign fighters to focus their efforts outside the country."

    I don't know if I've ever talked about this, but it's obvious that if Al Qaeda is defeated in Iraq it will go elsewhere, as it's doing anyhow in response to the war, e.g., the attacks on London and Madrid. The problem is, we have helped make Al Qaeda stronger.

    "While Iran and Syria are the most active state sponsors of terror, many other countries will be unable to prevent their resources from being exploited by terrorists."

    A key reason to oppose the war is that it's making the terrorists stronger, providing them with experience, rallying people to them, knocking out the anti-Al Qaeda Saddam regime, etc.

    "Groups 'of all stripes' will increasingly use the Internet to communicate, train, recruit and obtain support."

    Yes, this is a point you have made, and there's no reason to dispute it. It's fairly obvious that the internet provides a means for people to promote their ideas and recruit people. But, a key to that is that Al Qaeda has had the opportunity, thanks to the war hawks, to demonstrate that it is able to take on the United States.

    "The assessment also lays out weaknesses of the movement that analysts say must be exploited if its spread is to be slowed. For instance, they note that extremists want to see the establishment of strict Islamic governments in the Arab world - a development they say would be unpopular with most Muslims."

    I have never disputed that. If anything, I detest Al Qaeda more than most conservatives, who often have at least some sympathy with the idea of religion in government and a narrow definition of right and wrong. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but I don't know why you think I've ever taken issue with that. Care to explain?

    ""Exposing the religious and political straitjacket that is implied by the jihadists' propaganda would help to divide them from the audiences they seek to persuade," the report says."

    I agree with that, and have stated one major mistake of our strategy was to destroy the Baathists, which are relatively secular. (Tony Blair, by the way, agrees with me on that point.) Unfortuntely, the situation we've created is that anyone who wants to oppose the United States has only one real option: turn to fundamentalist radicals. I'd also add that the propaganda of jihadists does alienate a lot of people (and I've said that people are roughly the same the world over), but it does not take anything near a majority to wage a war against us. Al Qaeda has around 20,000 followers I think I've read. That's enough to cause tremendous problems.

    "It also argues that the loss of key leaders - Osama bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahri and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi - in "rapid succession" would probably cause the group to fracture."

    That's fairly obvious, isn't it? At the same time, I do wonder if it fractures, will it become even more dangerous. That's sort of what happened with our defeat of Saddam. The country fractured, and now we're battling many different groups.
  8. scout

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    #15 Jersey

    I am not opposed to fighting terrorism. I supported the invasion of Afghanistan. I hadn't realized Iraq declared war on us. Isn't it about time we had a leader who took a major step in developing energy alternatives and get out of the stone age. I'm really tired of the left/right rhetoric that comes out of every post. We could reduce our consumption of foreign oil with the right tax credits. I noticed all the hybrid cars tax credits will be ending soon. Maybe we should go in the other direction.
  9. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Who created those tax credits BTW?

    As for Iraq, you Bush haters just don't get it. Al-Queda is only part of the problem. The real problem, the root of the tree, is radical islam. Therefore, when combatting a group like Al-Queda, you have to ask yourself, why do these people willingly want to kill in the name of religion? When you analyze this problem, you come to the conclusion that oppression is the tool by which these people are brain washed. Well, the choice to go into Iraq was made with the intent of changing the geopolitical structure of the ME. Were Iraq, and its citizens, to succeed as a sovereign democracy, one where each individual enjoyed a similar right to choose their representation, then surrounding peoples would enboldened to demand the same thing. Once individuals have voted for government, you won't return them to oppressive representation. It's why we have to succeed there.


    The problems with drilling our own supply are not completely partisan. The isssues with drilling are mostly geographic. If you disect the voting to allow off shore drilling, it is cut along coastal states versus land locked states. It quite funny actually. The coastal states don't want wrigs off their shores. They argue that it would ruin either tourism, or fishing. HA! What dopes. Researchers indicate that the US has massive oil and gas reserves off it's shores. However, a bill passed some 15+ years ago prohibits us to probe for any of it. I guess we'd rather buy from terrorists than make sense.
  10. scout

    scout Rookie

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    #15 Jersey

    As Reagan would say, "there you go again". I really don't care who created the tax credits. Why are we not extending them is the issue. You must have missed my post on "why did we invade Iraq". Many of the replies stated oil was the major reason with Eurodollars also being a major player. So, your saying we invaded Iraq to change the geolpolitical structure of ME? What a wonderful idea, and one that we will have to live with for hmmmmmmm, how many hundreds of years? Good thing Bush wasn't born decades earlier when we could have invaded Russia.
  11. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    I was dead set against the invasion GJ...thought it a bad idea with major problems. I did not like it at all right though to watching the Saddam statue fall. Once we disbanded the army and police I knew we would be there for a long time...my opinion then as it remains now is to do the right thing...stay until they can function as a country.

    We could have achieved many things in other ways...unfortunatley we chose this way...so yes...in some ways I would say it but from other methods of course.

    The reason the fascists are so powerfull is that these people have suffered for many many years. Going back through time the area has always been in a constant flux. This is why the Prophet Muhammed is so powerfull...he achieved greatness in their eyes. I think they long for greatness and freedom. We could have helped them get there in other more peacefull ways.
  12. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    Absolutely...oil and the Palestinians are always at the root cause of everything. I'll never understand we we learned nothing from the 70's...it defies all intelligence how greedy, dumb, and corrupt we have been.
  13. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    NEM why so defeatist when it comes to the Middle East? These people have the same origins that we do. If we can do it so can they. I'm not saying they will or they won't...but you talk down at them like they are inferiorly incapable of being a democracy...that is very racist on your part.

    I could care less if they have one or they don't. i agree it is not our job to stay until they have a democracy. I think we should stay until they can stand on their own and I also think one day they will be a democracy.
  14. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Die to his involvement with OBl and involvement with terrorist atacks in the 90's President Clinton had his justice department indict both OBL and Saddam. President Clinton also asked for and signed a bill calling for regieme change in Iraq. Glad to fill you in on that.

    Currently alternative energy is very far away from providing our energy needs. When it get closer the market will jump in with both feet at th prospect of making $$, that's how the market works.

    There are options that could help such as bio fuels from sawgrass, and some promising tar sands conversion technology that doesn't require vast amounts of water. Still we need to develop our own fossil fuels and the dems have fillibustered all attempts at an energy bill (with some help from a few dimwitted pubbies).
  15. scout

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    #15 Jersey

    I do not care what President Clinton signed. I do not care that congress gave Bush a blank check. Iraq did not invade us. The vast majority of Americans do not know why we invaded Iraq. I'm not even sure that there is a member on this site that agrees with your conclusion on why we invaded Iraq. Not trying to change your stance, "just filling you in".
    Energy: great reasoning to wait for market $ to determine our energy needs while we lose soldiers in battle and innocent civilians. This nation was built on invention and combating whatever plague or virus that threatened us by finding the correct chemistry to curtail that epidemic. That has never been the problem. The current problem is leadership. Again, you post its the democrats filibuster...........Question: if an alternative energy solution was found, which unburdened us from the use of foreign oil, do you seriously think it would be implemented?
  16. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    So you are one of the blood for oil conspiracist, can't have a rationale fo rthat one. BTW Germany didn't invade us in WW2, Al Queda didn't invade us, should we not defend ourselves when attacked or wait for the invasion?

    The left wants to fight the WOT by curling up in the fetal position. It won't work.
  17. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    . . . . . . . . . .;)

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