Expectations of underachieving/new players

[Get it shawtaay]

I think he will be cut.

Why? He's already distanced himself from Cunningham and Bequette, making him the #3 DE on the team. He also has value as a depth player because he can swing to DT. We will carry 5 or 6 defensive ends. Do you really think 3-4 players will pass him on the depth chart?

 

[Nunchucks]

"Before Dowling got injured" would go back to October of 2011, as the injury that limited Dowling in camp, preseason, and into the regular season was recovery from his hip surgery.

Dowling never has really recovered from that initial injury that landed him on IR. That is the real problem

 

[Get it shawtaay]

Dowling never has really recovered from that initial injury that landed him on IR. That is the real problem

Yep. He couldn't move well last year. Reiss noticed it in preseason and it showed up in games. If he can regain his movement skills, then he will make a ton of people eat crow. If he can't.... nevermind.

 

[fnordcircle]

Francis DID look good when he was in. Outperforming Jones? Hmmmmmmm

One can only hope Jones continues to improve in his sophomore season and Francis out performs him !! What a dilemma to have along the DL

To be clear, I really like Chandler Jones. But I'm more excited about Francis.

 

[tonyto3690]

"Before Dowling got injured" would go back to October of 2011, as the injury that limited Dowling in camp, preseason, and into the regular season was recovery from his hip surgery.

So your defense for him is "he's been perpetually hurt or two years"?

Yes that's a sure sign he won't get cut.

 

[Nunchucks]

To be clear, I really like Chandler Jones. But I'm more excited about Francis.

Francis is a high motor, never give up kinda play with limited physical tools.

Chandler Jones is a physical specimen with the same motor. Jones will be a force this coming season. I cannot wait

 

[JackBauer]

So your defense for him is "he's been perpetually hurt or two years"?

Yes that's a sure sign he won't get cut.

Nice work moving those goalposts.

The issue is that you claimed Cole had passed Dowling on the depth chart prior to the latter's injury. A claim that was patently false, as Sciz noted.

 

[jmt57]

People want to pretend like Dowling will become a shutdown corner, but Cole was ahead of him in the depth chart even before he got injured.

Help me out, because I don't ever recall Cole being ahead of Dowling (except of course, when Dowling was on injured and on IR).


Besides, why does Dowling have to be a 'shutdown corner' in order to contribute, or else he should be cut, with no gray area in between? Does the same standard of excellence or be cut apply to every player on the team?

If somebody makes that 'shutdown corner' claim respond to them, but I certainly don't see that as a consensus among this forum, or fans of the Patriots in general. Seems like a straw man argument.

 

[Get it shawtaay]

To be clear, I really like Chandler Jones. But I'm more excited about Francis.

Francis is a player I am cautiously optimistic about.

His skillset is interesting. Reminds me a lot of Jarvis Green, in terms of size and length, and he uses that length well as a pass rusher. He also has a strong punch and a natural push-pull element to his game - traits that the majority of defensive ends never possess. When he times the snap right, offensive linemen can't get their hands on him.

Furthermore, between the fact that he got a late start playing football (started as a junior in HS), and the fact that he improved visibly over the season, it is possible his ceiling has yet to be scraped.

 

[tonyto3690]

Nice work moving those goalposts.

The issue is that you claimed Cole had passed Dowling on the depth chart prior to the latter's injury. A claim that was patently false, as Sciz noted.

My bad, it wasn't cole, i misremembered. It was the amazing sterling Moore.

Dowling got benched while sterling played against Fitzgerald.

 

[jmt57]

My bad, it wasn't cole, i misremembered. It was the amazing sterling Moore.

Dowling got benched while sterling played against Fitzgerald.

Benched due to poor play or was injured?

I'm not so sure that any of us can say either was an indisputable fact with such absolute certainty.

 

[supafly]

I guess you have it right and Reiss and others have it wrong. They think that we need a corner, mostly since we can't count on Dowling.

I didn't mean to sound like I was claiming to know any more than others, mg.

I wouldn't ever say that, many of my statements include the comment of "you could be right," etc. I'm not that kind of poster who deals in strong wording too often, at least I try hard not to be.

Reiss and others have a better feel for the team obviously, and I'm quite sure we'll be adding another couple/few CBs to compete on the 90 man TC roster no matter what. That may include a draft pick also. The CB depth chart is far from set in the month of March, so it's really not a concern. The base corp of CBs however, is already better than last season and in 2011 considering that we're scheduled to have both Talib and Dennard starting full-time for the entire season, and signed ALL 3 players of Talib, Arrington, and Cole in free agency.

I certainly view Ras-I-Dowling as one of those CBs in the mix though, and I was simply pointing out the actual QB against rating stats that showed Dowling at the top in a very limited sample size of approx. 25 targets, which I was sure to point out.

I see no reason to think that Dowling won't be competing for a spot on the 53 man roster just the same as the last 2 yrs. Hell, we'll be having CBs in who are much worse than him that will be in TC. The main question and concern of course is whether or not he can remain healthy.

The CB depth chart we have at the moment consists of:

Talib
Dennard
Arrington
Dowling
Cole
Williams

(McCourty could obviously play there if when needed. We saw him rotate back and forth in SB46 between the 2 positions and was very effective. We all want him as a full time safety, but he's certainly got to be included and would obviously be called upon in emergency situations if we don't have better options. He is definitely depth).

That's SEVEN so far...

We also will likely use a draft pick someone in April, not to mention the other couple/few additions to get to the 90 man TC limit.

If Mike Reiss and others have nothing better to do than worry about adding another CB with Talib, Dennard, Dowling, Arrington, Cole, McCourty, and Williams--along with the obvious expected moves that are coming, shame on them.

 

[supafly]

My bad, it wasn't cole, i misremembered. It was the amazing sterling Moore.

Dowling got benched while sterling played against Fitzgerald.

Right. As I said, Cole wasn't even ahead of the rookie Dennard, let alone Dowling--or he'd have stepped in when Moore was taken off the practice squad by the Cowboys and Dowling became injured after the 6th game.

Anyway, it's cool of you to point out the mistake. I agree with your thoughts on Talib being somewhat overrated and a couple of other things. I do think that you may be seeing things a bit too pessimistically, but sometimes people just have a tendency to view things in that perspective.

Like I said, I think it's fair to look at last year's team and then see the better options that we'll have as full-time starters who are scheduled to play the whole year. The depth is the most important issue, and that's been improved. That would be in the CB spot, the S spot, and even the LB spot (with Fletcher returning.) Aside from the DL position (and even that has new additions and potential for a 1st rd pick + a solid vet like Abraham etc) we seriously have a better group of talent in just about every position top to bottom on that side of the ball.

 

[Claremonster]

My prediction is that Francis will outperform Chandler Jones.

Really? If so, that would be sweet! Last year during the end of the regular season, he was starting to make some plays. No doubt.

I think Chandler could be top shelf next year if he stays healthy and keeps pushing on. Hopefully he will work this offseason with his brother doing the mma thing.

 

[Brady6]

Why? He's already distanced himself from Cunningham and Bequette, making him the #3 DE on the team. He also has value as a depth player because he can swing to DT. We will carry 5 or 6 defensive ends. Do you really think 3-4 players will pass him on the depth chart?

I don't know I just feel like he played beyond his talent for much of the year and this year I expect the competition to be stronger. I also think the distance between him and Cunningham was more about punishment for the PED suspension and the distance between him and Bequette was more about the fact BB views Bequette as a 4-3LDE in an under alignment, 3-4DE or a 3tech DT in a sub package and redshirted him to allow him to bulk up 20-30 pounds before the start of this season

I like Francis I hope he proves me wrong but I just feel like he stuck around because we had very few options not because of his play.

 

[Brady6]

Yep. He couldn't move well last year. Reiss noticed it in preseason and it showed up in games. If he can regain his movement skills, then he will make a ton of people eat crow. If he can't.... nevermind.

I agree but I also believe even if in the worst case Dowling lost something he could still have future in the NFL as a FS because of his size.

 

[Brady6]

So your defense for him is "he's been perpetually hurt or two years"?

Yes that's a sure sign he won't get cut.

I think anytime a player who just 24 years old has the talent of Dowling and was taken with the 33rd overall pick you hold out hope that he succeeds especially when injuries have been the only thing that's prevented him up to now.

Stafford, McCoy and others did figure it out in their 3rd season so I don't think it is impossible.

 

[Avenger]

Dowling costs more to cut than keep, he may end up on the IR if he is hurt, but if he isn't he can certainly be a backup CB at the least. Hip injuries often take two years to recover from, lets wait and see how it all plays out.

 

[Get it shawtaay]

I don't know I just feel like he played beyond his talent for much of the year and this year I expect the competition to be stronger. I also think the distance between him and Cunningham was more about punishment for the PED suspension and the distance between him and Bequette was more about the fact BB views Bequette as a 4-3LDE in an under alignment, 3-4DE or a 3tech DT in a sub package and redshirted him to allow him to bulk up 20-30 pounds before the start of this season

I like Francis I hope he proves me wrong but I just feel like he stuck around because we had very few options not because of his play.

OK. Fair enough.

Personally, I think you are underselling his ability. I know he's not nearly as gifted as Jones is. But he's not too shabby himself. I think his ceiling is, to borrow some baseball lingo, a rotational player on a "first division defense." Apart from Jones and Wilfork I wouldn't describe anyone else on our DL roster as having that ceiling/ability.