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Evangelical biographer warms to Obama

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Patters, Jun 16, 2008.

  1. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Not exactly thrilled that Obama is making inroads with religious types because, obviously, the more they enter the Democratic Party, the more the Democratic Party will consider even their wrongheaded views. That said, regardless, the Democratic Party is likely to stay left of the Republicans, and the more the Republican Party is weakened, the more it will have to rethink its views on race, gender, sexual orientation, and civil rights in general.

    [​IMG]

    The conservative Evangelical biographer of George W. Bush and Tom DeLay has moved on to a new subject: Barack Obama. And his new book, due out this summer, may lend credibility to Senator Obama's bid to win Evangelical Christian voters away from the Republican Party.

    The forthcoming volume from Stephen Mansfield, whose sympathetic "The Faith of George W. Bush" spent 15 weeks on the New York Times bestseller list in 2004, is titled "The Faith of Barack Obama." Its tone ranges from gently critical to gushing, and the author defends Obama-and even his controversial former minister, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright-from conservative critics, and portrays him as a compelling figure for Christian voters.

    "Young Evangelicals are saying, 'Look, I'm pro-life but I'm looking at a guy who's first of all black-and they love that; two, who's a Christian; and three who believes faith should bear on public policy," Mansfield, who described himself as a conservative Republican, said in a telephone interview. "They disagree with him on abortion, but they agree with him on poverty, on the war."
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2008
  2. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Ummm...Patters? From your post:


     
  3. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    We established the pro black racism thing last night - you aren't going there again are you ? Tough guy (that's my new name for Patters since he turned me in for calling him a name. Waaaaa).
     
  4. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    I just don't see how anyone can talk about racism when you've got these evangelicals who "love" that Obama is black. It destroys a giant section of Patters' argument.

    He infracted you for being mean to him? LOL...

    Sorry...I shouldn't laugh...I wish I was a mod. :D
     
  5. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Of course it's hard for people to understand why some peole would welcome a black president. After all, if you believe, as BF does that "some races more than others don't take getting a good education and getting a good job seriously enough," you might be concerned about someone from one of those races getting into the White House. But, if your views are more modern, chances are you recognize the tremendous symbolic value, not only to the US, but to the world, of electing a President from a race that has been beaten down for most of our history.

    My intention was to bring religion, not race into this thread. But, as far as race goes, as I've said before, it is more difficult for those who are discriminated against to be racist. Does anyone consider the Jews who opposed the Germans to be anti-German? Does anyone consider the slaves who revolted to be racist? Does anyone consider the blacks who united to fight disenfranchisement racist? The white majority, as some of the righties often show here, has generalized about blacks as a race and discriminated against blacks as a race and then has the idiocy to object when blacks act as a race? You only want to blacks to be a race when you talk about education, income, crime, etc. You have a clear double standard that, in my view, exposes a form of ignorance.
     
  6. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Some of the most Loyal God Fearing Christians in this country are the people of the "Black Community", I know that one for a fact, I grew up with them, and I attended the African American church on Allston St Cambridge Mass on many a Sunday morning with some of old neighborhood friends, I love "Gospel" and the Singing that shook the walls of that old building would give The Devil Goosebumps.

    Black People and their Love Of Jesus/God is something that Liberals will just have to live with, never will they change that, Mahaliah Jackson singing 'Precious Lord' at Martin Luther King's funeral says it all about the Black Community's "Love For Their Jesus"

    Martin Luther King was also a "Christian" and mentioned his God many times in his speeches, most Liberals just ignore this fact, much of Kings beliefs come from "His God".
     
  7. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yes, Harry, and by the same token, conservatives like you need to accept the fact that "some of the most Loyal God Fearing Christians in this country" are liberals.
     
  8. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    I don't believe that was the point, was it? The point is that you're talking about the "Evangelicals" as though they're the right wing of the right wing, and at the same time, the guy who wrote the book is telling us that the young Evangelicals "love" that Obama is black. And I've said for a long time (and been laughed at and called stupid) for saying the republicans would run a black man or woman if they'd have showed up.

    That's the point--that this racism stuff...yes there's still racism around, but it's nowhere near as bad as you and Jesse Jackson et al want it to be.

    And why do you keep bringing up the Jews who opposed the Germans? It was 70 years ago. Why keep pointing to that example?

    You talk about the "righties" here who supposedly have "generalized about blacks as a race and discriminated against blacks as a race and then has the idiocy to object when blacks act as a race?"...when what exactly is it YOU yourself are doing when everything is "blacks" this and "jews" that?

    I just don't get it. In my daily life I treat each person I meet as an individual...I don't look at a person and see an entire group or culture standing behind them. That you do speaks volumes about you, Patters, and about who's ignorant and who isn't.
     
  9. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Who's ignorant? You look at a person and see an entire race. You then assign that race with your own ideas.

    Look how you generalize about people who're different from you politically.

    But we're ignorant, because we don't want to look at people and assign them to a certain group or groups.

    Efff me..
     
  10. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Is any surprised at Patters welcoming the Jesus Freak, bible bopper vote if it favors Obama? Talk about a hypocrite (surprise, surprise). Frauders despises people of faith, and rails against the Rove's of the world who use those eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil evangelicals to swing an election. Here, Frauders is all gitty over trying to woo those very same people. Nothing like principles eh? What's good for the goose, is good for the gander I guess.
     
  11. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree, there are millions of them.
    I'm really not Conservative, I'm a bewildered Ex Democrat who woke up one morning to see that the Carters, Kennedy's, Clintons and Hollywood took my party over and turned it into a bunch of Hateful Nasty Blubbering Loons-----:singing:
     
  12. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Very good job at describing the origins of this type of racism. What we should try to do is look at a group of people who have a failing in one area and ask rationally why they are doing poorly. Do you see skin color as an indicator that on person is somehow less than another person in terms of ability, intellect, drive, etc.? I don't. I understand why it's an easy mistake to make, especially in a society that ghettoizes and generalizes about people based on race, etc.

    Actually, even there, I try hard to say things like, "many Republicans" or "some righties." I do not like to stereotype. But, at least with politics, it's not an innate aspect of a person. Skin color is something people have no choice about, while political views clearly involve choice. I'm sort of surprised you even tried to draw an analogy.
     
  13. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    You know what? I don't think I did have a choice of political views. I've always been a conservative libertarian. From the first I can remember...second and third grade even.

    But fine--consider the analogy withdrawn (even though it shows how you tend to group people...LOL).

    And dammit, Patters, if I say I look at people as individuals, why would I then assign all these things on YOUR list to them? That sort of defeats the concept of individualism.

    Society...huh. What's society? Nothing but people. And guess what? You're part of it. The only person in any of these threads who's said anything about blacks being lazy or unintelligent or whatever--has been you. Why is that?

    And don't hand me "because I'm just saying what you think" crap--it won't fly.

    And the sooner you get over the notion that everyone is part of a group and needs to be treated as though they were, the sooner we can move on as a people...as a human race.
    But as long as there are people who feel it necessary to keep dividing us, it won't.
     
  14. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    I'm praying as hard as I can that you wake up as a black man tomorrow. Too bad you weren't born a black man...you'd be singing a different tune.

    I suggest you have an in-depth discussion with one of your black male friends regarding this topic.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2008
  15. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    It's cute!

    Dude--first of all, I'd rather have the discussion with one of my black female friends...for obvious reasons! Secondly, I very well might be singing a different tune...what's my tune again? That we're all individuals, that no one is more or less valuable or important than anyone else until they prove it as an individual, that on one should be grouped together based on anything...unless it's chosen...that I wish people would just be able to put aside all these goofy "differences" that don't really matter a hill of sh!t in the snow...yeah, I'm a real bad person.

    Guess what? If I'd been born Italian in Boston I'd have a different outlook. If I'd been born to hippies I'd have a different outlook. What's your point?

    We all have our outlooks on life. That doesn't give anyone--black or white, gay or straight, Christian or Muslim--the right to discriminate against anyone else.

    You don't even have that right.
     
  16. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You know, a.paul, my argument on this issue wasn't really with you, and I was surprised when you seemed to come down on the side of BF and RW on this matter.

    In my view, commonsense tells us there's prejudice in this country. I've worked in suburban corporations; I've been on the management side of the desk; I've had and have friends who are minorities; I've gotten ahead because of sexism at least once; I see how people who have almost no contact with blacks generalize about blacks; with my Irish last name I've even witnessed anti-semiticism (I'm nominally Jewish) and certainly anti-gay remarks. Even in Cambridge, a black friend of mine was standing in the parking lot of the building next door waiting for me, when someone came over to him asked what he was doing. I can assure you, a white person would never have been questioned for loitering.

    When people are defined as a race, they stand together because they have no other choice. The same used to be true in this country for Jews, Italians, Irish, and others. They engaged in what some righties would call racist activities because they stood together in the fact of oppression.
     
  17. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    And if everyone lived by the rules you just wrote, there wouldn't be any racism. but a huge percentage of our society does group people together & stereo type them. as long as that exists, then the minority will be protected against the majority. That is what our constitution and bill of rights was written to do.

    Fact: You can't say there is not a lot of racism in America. We can both agree that there is

    Fact: we can't wait for people to start thinking like you do before we "force" changes.

    Fact: If there is racism (and we agree that there is) people must and will be protected. there will be laws that will force everyone to act as you do a paul (even if they don't think like you do).

    Fact: The Bill of Rights is designed to protect the rights of the individual against the will or tyrany of the majority (net/net, people who think "hey, this is my country and ...." suck)
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2008
  18. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Yes, they do. They even stand together if they share some common political bonds...;)

    I've been glared at, asked what I was doing and so forth. Then again, as a 5'8" 250 ought pound powerlifter with a shaved head and a long goatee, I look a little like Charles Manson on steroids...and I'm most comfortable in "work" clothes, so I get judged based on my appearance all the time. Heck, I was in a resteraunt a while ago waiting for a friend...he's older than I am, and wears a suit (salesman) complete with bow tie, and has a...slightly stereotypical manner (if you get my drift). When he came in and sat down I heard the people at the table behind him say "see I told you he was a f*g".

    And btw--when I was a teenager I lost a summer job because they had to hire a latino women. This was for a flag person job out in a small town in NH in the 80's. Where were they going to find a latino woman? So they never got their flag person.

    Funny, huh?
     
  19. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    The problem with forcing changes is that nothing changes, all you do is breed and foster more hatred and resentment. I'm not saying people don't need protection--but the attitudes of whites towards blacks has changed a whole hell of a lot in the past 25 years even. But has the attitude of blacks toward whites?

    We've got a society where a black guy is the nominee for the dominant political party, and even the Evangelicals are thrilled by him.

    But we also live in a society where black kids kill each other at an apalling rate, where black men in music and videos objectify women as b*tches and hos, but where a pathetic old white guy gets fired from his job for daring to use the word ho.

    Now you tell me--at what point do we get to just walk out on the field toward each other and get rid of this Jesse Jackson "every white person is a racist" crap?
     
  20. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    Many people still fly confederate flags...even in the northern US. I think we need to fully understand what it was like to be treated as animals, to be called monkeys or to be relegated to the back of the bus in order to judge even guys like Jackson. He had his friend, Martin Luther King, murdered by a white racist. You don't just get over these types of evils in 10 or 20 years.

    You must admit, it's easier to "get over" being a racist when you're not the object of the racism. But when generation after generation has been attacked (both literally & figuratively), it takes a lot longer to get over it.

    Wouldn't you agree?
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2008

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