Evaluating the offensive line

[BradyManny]

Guregian: Tucker, Wilcots on O-Line

An interesting article from the Herald (I know, heresy to even post), but I agree with many of the thoughts on the offensive line.

The 16 sacks allowed is hugely misleading, IMO, since Brady got hit a lot and was under pressure a lot. I also think Brady forced throws - and interceptions - in an effort to avoid sacks & further damage to his ribs. Particularly in that Baltimore game - I think he really did not want to fall with his ribs ontop a football, with 250LBs of a psychotic-double-homicide committing-Baltimore Raven coming down on him as well.

Ross Tucker mentions Kazcur as a guy who needs help on the edge. I don't think he's elite by any stretch, but to me, the problem is the interior line. Once Neal went out in SB 42, that middle of the line was exposed, and truly cost us 19-0, moreso than the Tyree pass, Ellis Hobbs, bad refereeing, or any other scapegoats we've named. Koppen is not a great center, anymore, if he ever was. Mankins is a beast, but is not great in pass protection. Neal is good, when he's healthy, but he may be retiring this offseason.

So to me, the tackle position is looking strong with 4 guys I'd be OK with starting. The interior line needs help. As discussed in other threads, moving Kaczur inside might make sense given the depth at tackle and the lack of depth inside.

 

[Miguel]

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Stat of the Day: Quarterbacks Getting Hit

may be of help

 

[BradyManny]

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Stat of the Day: Quarterbacks Getting Hit

may be of help

Thanks Miguel, interesting stuff. So the eye test matches reality here - Brady did take a beating last season.

Maybe part of that has to be blamed on offensive philosophy - our plays & routes (aside from the bubble screens) take longer to develop than those in the Colts offense, for instance. Still, the discrepancy is alarming. Manning hardly gets hit at all. His offensive line is truly underrated[what a joke it is that Polian throws them under the bus after the SB loss]. Of course, we saw the downside to the slants & incuts based offense when Porter was taking it to the house last Sunday.

I think it's in the Patriots best interest to bolster in the interior line.

 

[ALP]

hopefully one of the guys who can play tackle can also play RG, b/c its time for neal to go

then, an upgrade at center would be really nice, and thats all that needs be done w/ the o-line

are there any good draft prosects fro the center position?

 

[PatsChamp88]

Right now we have excellent depth at Tackle but Guard is another story. Currently Mankins is set to be RFA (no worries this year) and Neal is contemplating retirement (). Obviously we have some guys that can fill in here and there but can they be starter material is the question, I would really like to see some consideration for Maurkice Pouncey who can play Guard or Center if we can snag him with a second round pick. However there are some other decent Guard prospects in the later rounds too.

If there is any site you want to see detailed statistics by position it's profootballfocus check out these links...
NE Tackles: ProFootballFocus.com - By Position
NE Guards: ProFootballFocus.com - By Position
NE Centers: ProFootballFocus.com - By Position

However if your interested in ratings you'll want to check out footballoutsiders they are better than profootballfocus...
OL Ratings: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

 

[JR4]

Of course this is one of my big needs.
Give Brady the kind of pass protection that Manning enjoys and
watch the PATs offense soar. The interior line I have said needs
work. Center and RG especially. Upgrade those two positions
and PATs offense will be flying.

To Me, protection of your excellent Franchise QB should be top priority.
What good does it do to get Defense speed rushers if you lose
one of the best QB's in the league?
Who here can justify that? Who here would dare say getting better
protection for Tom Brady should not be the top priority?

BTW, IMO, PATs lost a Superbowl and the Wildcard weekend because
this Oline could not protect Tom good enough against a top defense.

 

[patsinthesnow]

It's not just the Oline, when you go 5 wide and there is a 4 man rush, you won't have much time. The pats need to use some 2wr 2te 1rb sets and Brady will have much more time.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I've been saying this since they were nicknamed the metaphors...he's always made them collectively look better than they were. As had Dante, although he can't hold their hands on the field and he couldn't coach around whatever got into (or ran over) them in 42.

I think the shock and awe of 2007 led to a false sense of security. Sadly by the end of the season teams were catching on and could stop this offense even with Moss, Welker, Gaffney and Stallworth.

Some of Cassel getting hammered was a learning curve but much of it was residue from the lessons the league learned down the stretch in 2007.

We need more options for Brady for sure, since having less clearly exacerbates the protection problems, but we also need consistently better pass protection and run blocking or we're not going to reap the full benefit of having Brady lead our offense. He's got another 6-7 highly productive seasons in him unless they get it beat out of him...

Belichick will always want his TE's to be good blockers, but it'd be real helpful if we could also use them as god intended...especially now that Welker is on the shelf indefinitely. I'd be a tragedy to see him come back midseason only to have a banged up QB as his welcome back present... For every corner you cut on the LOS you have to compensate in other areas. Spend the big bucks in the trenches and on your QB...and if he's a guy like Brady he will then make due with less costly/glamorous skill position players.

 

[WelshPat]

I don't think the Colts line is that great. They do a good job, don't get me wrong, but it's Mannings super fast release that stops him from getting hit. That, and the fact that he just goes down if he's about to take a shot.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I don't think the Colts line is that great. They do a good job, don't get me wrong, but it's Mannings super fast release that stops him from getting hit. That, and the fact that he just goes down if he's about to take a shot.

This yearthe Colts would agree with you. Especially the RB's...

His superfast release is a function of the timing offense he's running and their need to rely almost solely on it this season. He has to have 3-4 weapons who he trusts will get open quickly because he's throwing to a spot and not a target. Brady has Welker. The rest here either can't get seperation or the rush is collapsing the pocket before Brady can even get a throw off.

NO beat Manning by jamming his receivers and pressuing him just enough to get him off his hallowed spot. Remember, he almost threw a pick just before he threw that pick 6. Pressure gets to all of them. They actually allowed him to run the ball a little because they knew that would just shorten the game. It was as if Williams took a page out of the BB strategic manual.

Brady has always dealt with it better than most, because he is adept at buying time (unless his pocket is collapsing) and this offense is about adjusting pre and post snap (which Manning's doesn't) which requires a tad more time post snap. But this year really tested him because there wasn't any respite beyond the 2 little sisters of the poor games and in 4 of the remaining 15 games he didn't even have Welker (which would be akin to Manning without Clark). Game planning effectively takes Tom's TE's away as they function of necessity as 6th and even 7th blockers more often than not. If you don't trust that Moss can go get the ball due to coverage or injury, you can't assume and make the deep throw quickly. If you don't trust that your 3rd and 4th receivers will be where they were supposed to be or be capable of seperating then you can't make that throw quickly. That essentially leaves you holding the ball until the last possible second in hopes that something worthwhile comes open before you get decked, knowing the decking is coming one way or the other...

Upgrading this OL will have the same effect as upgrading all the weapons at Brady's disposal, including even the existing ones. Ideally they do a little of each, but they will get the better bang for their buck investment wise upgrading the OL via draft because receivers and running backs can be identified in FA less expensively...and WR system fits are harder to identify on draft day and RB's pose substantial durability risks but once in a generation QB's don't grow on trees in either case.

 

[captain stone]

I've been saying this since they were nicknamed the metaphors...he's always made them collectively look better than they were. As had Dante, although he can't hold their hands on the field and he couldn't coach around whatever got into (or ran over) them in 42.

I think the shock and awe of 2007 led to a false sense of security. Sadly by the end of the season teams were catching on and could stop this offense even with Moss, Welker, Gaffney and Stallworth.

Some of Cassel getting hammered was a learning curve but much of it was residue from the lessons the league learned down the stretch in 2007.

We need more options for Brady for sure, since having less clearly exacerbates the protection problems, but we also need consistently better pass protection and run blocking or we're not going to reap the full benefit of having Brady lead our offense. He's got another 6-7 highly productive seasons in him unless they get it beat out of him...

Belichick will always want his TE's to be good blockers, but it'd be real helpful if we could also use them as god intended...especially now that Welker is on the shelf indefinitely. I'd be a tragedy to see him come back midseason only to have a banged up QB as his welcome back present... For every corner you cut on the LOS you have to compensate in other areas. Spend the big bucks in the trenches and on your QB...and if he's a guy like Brady he will then make due with less costly/glamorous skill position players.

This.

When evaluating the future of the OL, these issues come to mind:
- Does SeaBass have a future at LT? If the answer is No, then Matt Light's replacement needs to be on the 53 by no later than opening Day 2011.
- Can Kaczur successfully move inside to RG? He makes too much $$ to be a backup, because Vollmer & Light appear to be the clear starters at Tackle for 2010.
- How much longer will Bill tolerate a Center who collapses the pocket on passing plays & provides no push on running plays?

From this view, the quickest solution to securing the present (& future?) stability of the OL could be:
- Start Vollmer at RT;
- Move Kaczur to RG from Day 1 of TC;
- Extend Mankins;
- Draft Maurkice Pouncey to replace Koppen by 2011 at the latest; he can also play RG if Kaczur doesn't cut the mustard.
This last step is problematic, because the FO might feel there is better value at 22; unfortunately, Pouncey will most likely be gone before our next pick in the 2nd round.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Pouncey

Meh.

........

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

The problem with upgrading an O-line is losing the continuity of the current line. O-line is a very complex position. Before every play, Brady will call out who is the "mike" linebacker. In the Pats offense, that means the whoever he calls, is the responcibilty of the O-line to block if he blitzes, so the O-line must then make their line calls (usually the tackles and the center make them) and the O-line will then figure out who is going to block all of the down lineman plus the "Mike". I don't care what level your playing at, the more lienman play together, the better they get at knowing which blocks each other can and can't make. So do not disregard the continuity of the O-line before moving to replace soemone, especially the Center.

I the big question for next year is do the Pats move Vollmer to LT this year or next? If they go this year, what do they do with Light? Trade him? I doubt he could make the switch to RT or even guard (who have to be quicker than tackles). I think that Neal will have to be replaced, injury has caught up to him. Now there are a few guards in the draft that could step right in and start ala Mankins. The trouble with that is Guard is not a spot to take at #22. Iupati will most likely be gone by the time the second round picks come along. HOwever, Pouncey from Florida (who is also a center) should be around and maybe even at #53. (Plus they could draft his twin brother next year, who is in sync with each other more than twins?). That could fill the guard hole. and he could give Koppen a run for the center job, or he could move there in the future. Johnson from Alabama could also fill the guard spot, but #53 might be a tad high for him, and the Pats do not have a 3rd round pick.

Keep in mind that Koppen is Brady's BFF, that can not be discounted in this discussion.

 

[mgteich]

When we think of upgrading the OL, the current line should be considered to be
LIGHT, MANKINS, KOPPEN, KACZUR, VOLLMER with Connolly, LeVoir. Wendell and Ohrnberger as backups.

There are very few lineman that would be a 2010 upgrade. Besdies, the issue will be whether the picks would be better used on defense. And even on offense, the receiver positions seem to be of greater need (wide receiver and tight end). I do expect us to sign a free agent veteran guard and/or center.

 

[cstjohn17]

Guregian: Tucker, Wilcots on O-Line

An interesting article from the Herald (I know, heresy to even post), but I agree with many of the thoughts on the offensive line.

The 16 sacks allowed is hugely misleading, IMO, since Brady got hit a lot and was under pressure a lot. I also think Brady forced throws - and interceptions - in an effort to avoid sacks & further damage to his ribs. Particularly in that Baltimore game - I think he really did not want to fall with his ribs ontop a football, with 250LBs of a psychotic-double-homicide committing-Baltimore Raven coming down on him as well.

Ross Tucker mentions Kazcur as a guy who needs help on the edge. I don't think he's elite by any stretch, but to me, the problem is the interior line. Once Neal went out in SB 42, that middle of the line was exposed, and truly cost us 19-0, moreso than the Tyree pass, Ellis Hobbs, bad refereeing, or any other scapegoats we've named. Koppen is not a great center, anymore, if he ever was. Mankins is a beast, but is not great in pass protection. Neal is good, when he's healthy, but he may be retiring this offseason.

So to me, the tackle position is looking strong with 4 guys I'd be OK with starting. The interior line needs help. As discussed in other threads, moving Kaczur inside might make sense given the depth at tackle and the lack of depth inside.

I have O Line in a large group of units that are ok but could use a impact player. Not every unit is going to be stacked with probowlers.

I see the deph looking like:
Light, LeVoir
Mankins, Wendell
Koppen, Connolly
Kaczur
Vollmer

As you said tackle is pretty deep with Kaczur being a primary backup at either spot.

If some addiitonal depth is added at Guard/Center then I think O Line is a good (not great unit).

 

[iapatsfan]

To me the biggest problem with our OL is the current offensive philosophy. Teams do not fear/respect/plan for/care about/etc. our running game. It's not like we had stellar OLinemen in 01, 03 and 04. I think the personnel on our OL (with the exception of Koppen) are fine, but teams know when they play the Pats they can pin their ears back and come after Brady. Part of playing D is reacting to the O, but with the Pats having no threat of a running game, defenses just focus on coming after Brady. If it happens to be a running play, defenses are fine with giving up some yards. In the superbowl years, the Pats had big, straight ahead runners that could grind out yards. This allowed the play-action to work well, and during those years Brady had 3-4 quality recieving options to pick from. Today it's drop back, look for Moss or Welker, if they're not open throw it away or force it. Our offense is way to easy to game plan for right now, and if we don't get some more skill postion guys and change our philosophy, we could be wasting Brady's prime years.

 

[Patstopia]

Has Kazur ever played Guard before for the Pats? If so how was his performance? I would be reluctant to move a player who has issues with his current poistion, to a new position and call it a 'fix'.
Also Center is a definite need for this team! It needs to be address this coming season before they break TB again.

 

[the wrothbroughterer]

Has Kazur ever played Guard before for the Pats? If so how was his performance? I would be reluctant to move a player who has issues with his current poistion, to a new position and call it a 'fix'.
Also Center is a definite need for this team! It needs to be address this coming season before they break TB again.

It's a lot harder to play T than G. A lot of players lacking lateral quickness to make blocks on the edge have been shifted inside to G and played very well. I read something a few days ago that mentioned KC wants to move their LT to G and a lot of people expect him to be near Pro Bowl cailber. Having said that, I don't know if Kaczur has ever played G, but its not like shifting positions would make him worse at blocking.

 

[the wrothbroughterer]

This.

When evaluating the future of the OL, these issues come to mind:
- Does SeaBass have a future at LT? If the answer is No, then Matt Light's replacement needs to be on the 53 by no later than opening Day 2011.
- Can Kaczur successfully move inside to RG? He makes too much $$ to be a backup, because Vollmer & Light appear to be the clear starters at Tackle for 2010.
- How much longer will Bill tolerate a Center who collapses the pocket on passing plays & provides no push on running plays?

From this view, the quickest solution to securing the present (& future?) stability of the OL could be:
- Start Vollmer at RT;
- Move Kaczur to RG from Day 1 of TC;
- Extend Mankins;
- Draft Maurkice Pouncey to replace Koppen by 2011 at the latest; he can also play RG if Kaczur doesn't cut the mustard.
This last step is problematic, because the FO might feel there is better value at 22; unfortunately, Pouncey will most likely be gone before our next pick in the 2nd round.

This team has a lot more pressing needs than replacing Dan Koppen. After looking at some of the stats from Pro Football Focus and Football Outsiders, I'm beginning to lose faith in him going forward, but there is no reason he shouldn't be a league average center next year. This draft has to address the gaping holes in the front 7 before any other position.

 

[JR4]

T..... This draft has to address the gaping holes in the front 7 before any other position.

What "gaping" hole?