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Euro-Countries Falling 1 by 1: A Lesson for Americans

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatriotsReign, Mar 25, 2011.

  1. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    The US is in deep debt, we all know that. We need to take a hard look at what needs to be done, and I believe that's already happening to an extent.

    But we all need to learn from what is going on in the Euro-zone nations as they begin to collapse financially 1 by 1. Why are they in such deep financial debt? We know it's not military spending, that's for sure!

    Portugal Is Said to Require as Much as $99 Billion in Any European Bailout

    Portugal Is Said to Require as Much as $99 Billion in Any European Bailout - Bloomberg

    EU Cuts Future Aid Fund’s Startup Capital on German Demands

    EU Cuts Future Aid Fund?s Startup Capital on German Demands - Bloomberg

    Spain Takes Turn in Debt Spotlight

    Portugal's Woes Turn Spotlight on Spain - WSJ.com

    Add Greece and Ireland to the list of the fallen....
     
  2. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    And the lesson is... what exactly?

    Don't have a modern economy during/after a downturn of historic proportions?

    Wait, I know -- raise the retirement age to 65? (The "austerity measure" in the PIIGS)?

    That there are 34 countries with worse debt to GDP ratios than the US, and Portugal is among them?

    I do agree that debt needs to be reined in, and I don't think we've even scratched the surface of what we'll have to do.

    I also think we have to means-test social security and medicaid, and go after the cheats who hide assets to take advantage of other taxpayers -- not to mention the tax chiselers who, one at a time, choose to make America's debt worse.

    So, your premise is that since the sky is falling in Portugal, we should watch out for the sky falling here.

    The number say that there might be a shaky cloud or two here, but the sky is not falling.

    We DO agree that our level of debt is less healthy than a lower level of debt.

    We DO agree that we have to pay for our obligations as a society.

    YOU have expressed in the past that you OPPOSE increasing the income stream that is collected to pay said obligations.

    I have expressed in the past, and reiterate here, that the problem is NOT at the low end, where many people use services for modest improvements above the poverty level, but at the high end -- where punks drive through gigantic loopholes to secure hundreds of thousands of dollars for themselves, while complaining that others should not be accorded a modest degree of dignity in their illness or old age.

    Which is it, PR?

    Is the country in debt trouble????

    If so, shouldn't we crack down on the cheats and the chiselers, so that only the truly indigent qualify for the state to care for them (medicaid?)

    Shouldn't we collect taxes in line with the society's needs?

    We've already ASSUMED measures that qualify as austerity elsewhere, in many ways. We already have people who won't be able to retire until age 67, in our current social security system.

    Given that many people don't even MAKE it to 67 able to be gainfully employed, the strategy of raising the retirement age just puts those people on disability rather than old age insurance.

    So what else ya got?

    I got this - we've currently lowered the SS tax from 6.2% to 4.2%. I say raise it back to 6.2%, and apply that 6.2% to every dollar earned, without limitation. Like you, this will affect wages I earn north of the "ceiling." Good.

    We've got a high corporate tax rate that nobody pays. Righties love talking about how long this bill is, how long that bill is. Evidently GE's corporate return -- resulting in a zero dollar tax bill -- was some 17,000 pages.

    Um, no.

    Our problem is not that we treat the poor and the indigent too well, by having the modest programs we have to put them one level above begging on the street. Our problem is not that "we can't possibly afford to medically treat the old."

    Our problem is we refuse to "socialize" medicine -- i.e., have one standard for everybody -- and we've made a national sport out of faking poverty (per the medicaid cheat and tax chiseller model.)

    The reason we have programs for the truly needy is that they're truly needy, not to give the truly well-off one more way to cheat their countrymen.

    So yeah, let's get a handle on debt. Let's start with the chiselers and the asset-hiders.

    You with me buddy?

    PFnV
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2011
  3. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    Nothing "personal" though PFiVA!!;):D
     
  4. PatsFanInVa

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    But of course not.

    Now in the hypothetical case of a tax chiseler or a person who makes every effort to transfer assets to artificially cause "indigency" for the older generation, throwing them onto the government dole without paying their own costs to the extent they can -- which is the rule, as everyone else follows it -- how do those behaviors effect the national debt?

    Hypothetically, should such a person be taken seriously on the subject of the national debt?

    Were such a person to urge that others, who do not engage in these behaviors, make do with less because of our looming debt crisis, how would you regard that call?

    I would not regard it highly. It is too tainted by the behaviors in question. It's the kid with his hand caught in the cookie jar, saying "MY GOD WE'RE ALMOST OUT OF COOKIES!!!! WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE???? HOW MANY COOKIES CAN YOU EAT ANYWAY!??!!?!?!??"

    Yet we see this phenomenon daily; you may even have run across such a person yourself. I know I have.

    So, for example, the corporations who pay no corporate tax jump through every hoop in the book to get their liabilities to zero. So to hear shills for those corporations claim that the reason our tax base is depleted is that we need to give them and their shareholders more tax breaks pretty much leaves me cold.

    If you do that at the same time you bust unions, claiming there's a budget crisis, it would just plain make me laugh, if it wasn't hurting so many good hard-working people.

    And when people work hard for a lifetime, I'm not of a mind to hear that what we have to do is pull the plug on them, so that someone is able to get a jump start of some tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on the rest of society.

    What we need to do is be responsible, as a society, and pay our bills. That means each of us pays our bills.

    Do you favor or oppose paying our bills? Are you for or against acting in a way that comports with your country's best interests, as regards our national debt?

    PFnV
     
  5. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    While I agree with both posters generally, I'd like to point out one thing that has been lost since the Greeks went into the tank a couple of years ago (not to mention the Soviets). None of these systems are equivalent or reflective of the US system when you take into account natural resources, technological development, geography, political stability and extremely "robust" military capability (in terms of dependency on others and vulnerability). The US resembles no other place on the planet on so many levels that to look at the trouble Spain is experiencing and draw parralels of doom for the US is kinda silly, IMO. I know it's tempting and trendy in the media, but we're not comparing like things here.
     
  6. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    I wasn't implying that we're doomed, I was merely illustrating countries that all have extremely high tax rates and social programs that turned out to be unsustainable. That was the only point I was making.
     
  7. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    It's almost as if I detect spite in your tone, but I'm sure it's just me. It's funny how difficult it is to express tone on the internets. Thankfully, we all realize this all just jibber-jabber and forgotten like a warm summer breeze.

    What a BEAUTIFUL Sunday moring PFiVA!!

    A belated happy Hag Purim to you sir!

     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2011
  8. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    Not pointing directly at you, but you point out examples that are often used to support those prophesies of doom that the goofs on TV like to promote. The cumulative subconscious effect is supportive of the child-myth that the government is always bad and unrestricted capitalism is always good. There is a large enough segment of the population that believe that and a failed Portugal is Exhibit C.

    Like I said, I agree mostly with the idea that we are not on a sustainable course. We may or may not disagree on how that should be resolved, but there are extremists out there who want to point as the government and its spending as the sole cause of such failure. As I think you know, it is a complex problem with even more complex solutions, and throwing out the baby with the bathwater is not how grownups do it.
     
  9. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    It is a beautiful day. Going out to the boonies in about an hour to my friend's woodlot for an afternoon in mud and saw chips, and then some venison stew and Guiness.
     
  10. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Paisano Red Wine, Deer Meat cooked on a stick over a campfire, Banjo / Guitar, clear skies, lots of stars, sex at 5 AM, life is beautiful.


    :bricks:
     
  11. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    No, I'm not a doomsayer, nor do I want to believe that kind of thing Wistah. I believe we can maintain our way of life, but with some sacrifices. I've also constantly posted that I fully support government regulation of corp-America and I do not support un-restrained capitalism.

    As a matter of fact, I've stated several times that I don't like the public-corp model at all. I'm not a fan of mega-corp's. And the fact they keep getting bigger & bigger scares the hell out of me.

    And I also think that the ways you see us fixing our problems isn't that much different than my own views.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2011
  12. PatsFanInVa

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    Snow of all things down here this morning.

    We have clearly reached the point (through combined aberrantly low taxation and a decent -- though not world-class, and pretty wasteful -- social safety net) where the biggest chunk of each year's deficit is debt servicing.

    We are clearly at the point where we have to pay now for things we have already bought.

    This is where the income stream comes into play.

    And this is why tax chiselers and medicaid frauds need to man up, and do right by their country (unless they are too selfish to.) This is why the loopholes that can be closed should be closed.

    Whatever personal gripes one has on a political forum of a fan board, one cannot solve the debt problems of a nation without an income stream.

    PFnV
     
  13. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    I must keep hitting that darn "REPLAY" button cuz this guy keeps posting the same thing everytime!;):D

    Travelled to CT yesterday for my neice's 9th b-day. Took my parents so my 81 y.o. dad didn't have to drive as he just had a minor eye operation (says he sees better than when he was 30). Then they stayed over my house....they left a short while ago.

    No more driving 250 miles (round trip) just for a 3-hour b-day party. Just not practical...
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2011
  14. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Social Security
    ____________________

    For people today 50 years of age and under (those over get grandfathered):

    1) Raise early ss from 62 to 65 and nra ss from 67 to 70 - - life expectancies have increased dramatically since 1937 when you were supposed to retire at 62 and die at 67.

    2) Eliminate the sswb ceiling (cuts off ss tax withholdings at approx. 112k). Trump, Buffet and Gates should pay their fair share.

    3) Cut ss tax rate from 6.2% to 3.1%. This ought to quell the whining from the rich about #2. Plus, this would be a huge corporate tax cut - since employers pay half of ss contributions.


    Tax Code
    _______________

    1) Keep mortgage interest rate deductibility for PRIMARY residences only.

    2) Eliminate all business entertainment and dining deductions.

    3) Make all private long term care policy premiums 100% tax deductible (takes pressure off of future medicare/medicaid).


    Federal Government Spending
    _______________________________

    1) Eliminate susbsidies to the legendarily profitable oil industry

    2) Stop the taxpayer boondoggle of corn ethanol

    3) Eliminate Saturday US Postal Service deliveries

    4) Eliminate the Department of Education (this is an area that should be run from the individual states and localities).

    5) The federal government should exit the art and culture subsidies business.

    6) INCREASE federal spending on infrastructure (rails, smart highways, ports, energy grid, medical records computerization, etc.)



    It's an incomplete list, but it's a start.
     
  15. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    And I think your proposales are an excellent start. They're all practical, common sense approaches to very real problems that won't go away.

    The best part of the above is that I see nothing about "right vs. left" in them. No one could say, "these are a "liberal's/conservative's" solutions.

    I noticed you left out cutting military spending, which I'd fully support. Start with massive cuts in the number of military bases on foreign soil.

    Lastly, you're very last idea (#6) on infrastructure is long-over due. I was watching Modern Marvels last week and it was on "Corrosion" and the US infrastructure and it scared the hell out of me.
     

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