Ethical Question for You All

[TBradyOwnsYou]

Well i decided to comment on this certain subject cause i am a military service member and i just wanted to say i honestly hate my job, it sucks. But if it weren't for the people supporting me id be insane by now lol but the average nfl player gets paid about 100000x more then me. I get about 1,100 a month and that's before the military takes random crappy out of my pay check and nfl players are worried about getting hurt while im worried about getting killed its ridiculous so i say just let them play

I'm unaware of a military service that pays so poorly. Are you from Canada or something? If you are American and you are getting paid that little, message me. Your pay is screwed up badly, and you are no doubt entitled to back pay.

As for feeling bad for NFL players? Lord no. They play a game for a living and they get paid handsomly for it.

 

[aluminum seats]

emoney, I can see you're putting thought into your responses, so I don't want to criticize too much, but your position here is completely asinine. I played ball in high school, and have loved to watch, and play, sports all my life.

Pretty much every guy I know who's played worked their tail off--hell, it's part of the enjoyment. 99% of us still have NO shot at the NFL. Even Danny Whitehead, the guy you like to mention (I guess because he's short and white), has tremendous gifts that give him an edge over the vast majority of pluggers, no matter how much time they spent in the gym.

So, sorry if you're young & working out a lot and have dreams of the NFL. It's probably not gonna happen.

 

[Synovia]

But most people could be as athletic as Woodhead (maybe not as quick) if they worked at it as much as he. .

Absolutely not.

Woodhead ran a 4.43 40 in his pro day. He also had a 39" vert. You can't "train" that.



Also, as to your contention of pro athletes getting there on Hard Work, Michael Vick got a $100M contract without ever having watched film

 

[emoney_33]

(1) To those with an understanding of the sport, I never had a shot, nor do many rational human beings, regardless of effort.

It's really yes or no question, don't make an excuse for it. Just say "no". No is my answer as well.

(2) I said they were superstars, or 1%'ers, with the genetic skill set to make it, and work got them the rest of the way. Feel free to refer to the Rudy reference in my first post.

There are far more than 1% of people born with the ability to train their bodies to athletic success. The average child has the correct genes to become athletically "gifted". They may not be born in the right situation, but Tiger Woods for example is much more a product of his father than of some genetic trait.

(3) If so, give me the record bench presses for female competitive powerlifters of all weight classes. Not true. If you haven't done it yourself, start hitting the weights.

Clearly I meant any "male". Obviously females are genetically different than males.

(4) Are you saying he didn't? Have you actually watched the guy his whole career and replayed his games at Michigan. Give me a break. That is just ignorant. Why was he drafted at all?

He did NOT have an "NFL arm" in 2000. Chad Pennington does not have an "NFL arm". He had accuracy, which is a byproduct of muscle memory, which is far more about repetitive dedication than genetics and childhood usage of small muscles than a genetic pre-disposition of throwing accurately. Tom Brady's arm strength in 2000 was NOTHING special, he worked his arse off to be where he is today.

(5) I never said you didn't have to work. You need base genetic potential in strength, size and speed plus work You typically don't get to the pros by loafing, by people do on pure ability without work.

Chad Pennington does not have "base genetic potential" in any of those categories. Maybe he was just lucky to play with Moss

Tom Brady is not abnormally tall, he was never very strong before maybe his 3rd or 4th NFL season and he never was nor ever will be very fast. So where on the genetic "freak" scale did he get into the NFL? Brady could easily have taken the easy road before college and say "meh I'm skinny I dont' have the genes man, I quit".

(6) I don't care to debate logic and argument in response to an irrational argument.

Then don't use poor logic as I never claimed what you asked in any way shape or form.

(7) I don't take offense to your argument. As it appears you have never actually played competitive athletics, your arguments are simply ridiculous. For those who have played and know what they did to fall short, your theories are insulting. I work out, but I am no athlete but have played football, basketball, baseball and track and spent years lifting and running, so I do have some clue as to genetics. I am not sure you do.

Playing sports does not give you a "clue" to genetics. You can assume what you want about me, but I will continue to assume that you didn't work as hard as any NFL practice squad player. You didn't give yourself every possible fighting chance since you were a teenager. Some try and make it. Some try, but fail and then move on. Some try, fail, fail, fail and continue trying until eventually making it. Some never really try and make excuses and blame their genes. The risk of failure is a very valid reason to not put 100% of everything into it.

(8) You are, you apparently are just ignorant to them.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

 

[emoney_33]

emoney, I can see you're putting thought into your responses, so I don't want to criticize too much, but your position here is completely asinine. I played ball in high school, and have loved to watch, and play, sports all my life.

Pretty much every guy I know who's played worked their tail off--hell, it's part of the enjoyment. 99% of us still have NO shot at the NFL. Even Danny Whitehead, the guy you like to mention (I guess because he's short and white), has tremendous gifts that give him an edge over the vast majority of pluggers, no matter how much time they spent in the gym.

So, sorry if you're young & working out a lot and have dreams of the NFL. It's probably not gonna happen.

Just playing sports and busting your butt is one thing, but there's another level of dedication that borders on insanity. I'm not saying that every single athlete has that type of dedication or that there aren't people that simply are genetically better off and can get by with "normal" busting of their butts, but it's not like you had 0 chance to be a professional athlete when you were born.

I chose Woodhead btw because he's not a "physical freak". But we can choose any non physical freak you want. Let's go with Chad Pennington, he's not a genetic physical freak.

 

[DaBruinz]

Well none of them have it that easy and I'm sure they've put in a TON of work since high school or before to become football players. You COULD have put in that much work as well, but chose not to. Clearly the chance of being an NFL player is NOT worth -all- the risks (including failing to reach the NFL) for the vast majority of us.

Or, he didn't have the ability. Kinda stupid to think that he chose not to be a football player..

While failure is a "risk" in anything you do, it should never be the defining item that keeps you from doing something. If it is, then you aren't really living..

Also, considering that the vast majority of us don't have the ability of any pro athlete, how would a person know whether or not they had the ability without taking the risk?

Sorry, but your rebuttal is lacking and really outta whack.

 

[Synovia]

Just playing sports and busting your butt is one thing, but there's another level of dedication that borders on insanity. I'm not saying that every single athlete has that type of dedication or that there aren't people that simply are genetically better off and can get by with "normal" busting of their butts, but it's not like you had 0 chance to be a professional athlete when you were born.

I chose Woodhead btw because he's not a "physical freak". But we can choose any non physical freak you want. Let's go with Chad Pennington, he's not a genetic physical freak.

Woodhead can run 40 yards from a stop in 4.4 seconds. He is a genetic freak.


Why do you believe that Pennington's accuracy is a learned trait? If it is, why can't Kyle Boller, who by all reports has thrown tens of thousands of footballs become accurate? Why is Donovan McNabb still throwing balls in the dirt?

You don't think Pennington's accuracy has anything to do with the way his brain works? Or the way his visual cortex communicates with his motor cortex? Why is it that NFL coaches can't seem to teach big armed college prospects to be accurate despite thousands of reps and perfect technique?

 

[DaBruinz]

Just playing sports and busting your butt is one thing, but there's another level of dedication that borders on insanity. I'm not saying that every single athlete has that type of dedication or that there aren't people that simply are genetically better off and can get by with "normal" busting of their butts, but it's not like you had 0 chance to be a professional athlete when you were born.

I chose Woodhead btw because he's not a "physical freak". But we can choose any non physical freak you want. Let's go with Chad Pennington, he's not a genetic physical freak.

Sorry, but the basis for your argument is junk. I contend that every Pro Athlete is a genetic freak. Including Chad Pennington, who probably throws a football and makes the decisions on where to throw it better in his sleep than you do on your best day.

It's a fact that you can't train speed. You also can't train reaction time or eyesight. Nor can you train agility to the level that Welker, Woodhead and Edelman have.

You just keep digging a deeper hole for yourself with every post.

 

[upstater1]

Feel bad for them? I envy college athletes. My life would be a lot simpler without college loans.

I don't mean to dig the knife in more, but some of the money you owe might have gone to those athletes. The vast majority of students at div. 1 football schools pay a huge chunk of money, a student fee, that goes directly to varsity sports.

 

[Synovia]

Playing sports does not give you a "clue" to genetics. You can assume what you want about me, but I will continue to assume that you didn't work as hard as any NFL practice squad player. You didn't give yourself every possible fighting chance since you were a teenager. Some try and make it. Some try, but fail and then move on. Some try, fail, fail, fail and continue trying until eventually making it. Some never really try and make excuses and blame their genes. The risk of failure is a very valid reason to not put 100% of everything into it.
.

I've got a neighbor who played guard and tackle for the BC Eagles, then ended up playing a couple years on practice squads and in NFL europe.

He didn't play any sports till his junior year of highschool. He walked onto the field, and was instantly the best player there. He played OTackle, NT, and even MLB in highschool.

You really think that was because he worked hard? Or the fact that he was 6'7", 275lbs and still one of the fastest guys on the field?

 

[Synovia]

It's a fact that you can't train speed. You also can't train reaction time or eyesight. Nor can you train agility to the level that Welker, Woodhead and Edelman have.

As another funny example of this, there's a kid who the Red Sox drafted named Bryce Brentz. He was 20/10 vision.

That means he can see at 20 feet what the normal person sees at 10. They're making him wear contacts to improve his vision, because its not good enough for an MLB ball player.

 

[emoney_33]

Well I'll leave this conversation now. You guys enjoy working just-as-much as the next guy and blaming everything else on genes I'd blame your childhood before your genes though.

Tiger Woods wasn't born to be a great golfer, he was raised to be a great golfer.

 

[emoney_33]

As another funny example of this, there's a kid who the Red Sox drafted named Bryce Brentz. He was 20/10 vision.

That means he can see at 20 feet what the normal person sees at 10. They're making him wear contacts to improve his vision, because its not good enough for an MLB ball player.

Are you seriously going to now suggest that all MLB players have better than 20/10 vision lol

 

[Synovia]

Well I'll leave this conversation now. You guys enjoy working just-as-much as the next guy and blaming everything else on genes I'd blame your childhood before your genes though.

Tiger Woods wasn't born to be a great golfer, he was raised to be a great golfer.

There's not question that tiger woods busted his ass.

But the idea that he doesn't have any physical ability is ridiculous.

 

[emoney_33]

Sorry, but the basis for your argument is junk. I contend that every Pro Athlete is a genetic freak. Including Chad Pennington, who probably throws a football and makes the decisions on where to throw it better in his sleep than you do on your best day.

lol Pennington is a "genetic freak".

It's a fact that you can't train speed. You also can't train reaction time or eyesight. Nor can you train agility to the level that Welker, Woodhead and Edelman have.

Please do more research as none of that is fact.

 

[emoney_33]

There's not question that tiger woods busted his ass.

But the idea that he doesn't have any physical ability is ridiculous.

An idea that I never so much as hinted at, you seem to be arguing strawmen at every turn.

If I started busting my ass off playing golf at age 16, I'd be at a severe disadvantage to Tiger because he started at like age 4. And the younger you are the more "trainable" most of your body is, ESPECIALLY your brain. So yes once you get to high school or college it may then be close to impossible to work your way into a professional athetlic career, but that was simply not likely the case at birth.

 

[TBradyOwnsYou]

Does genetic predisposition to athleticism really factor into the thread's original question of ethical feelings towards player injuries?

 

[aluminum seats]

If you really WANT better eyesight, you can have it. It's just a matter of working hard and wanting it enough. Just like height, really.

 

[upstater1]

Does genetic predisposition to athleticism really factor into the thread's original question of ethical feelings towards player injuries?

Good question. It's kind of like the genetically gay argument. I don't understand why either side gets involved in it at all. It's totally irrelevant to the actual argument at hand.

 

[aluminum seats]

Does genetic predisposition to athleticism really factor into the thread's original question of ethical feelings towards player injuries?

The point was made that being that many would gladly BE the athletes in question, there's no moral hazard in watching them play.

From there, the odd point was raised that most COULD be in the NFL if they merely wanted to be but probably didn't want to get hurt (yes, I know) and we were off to the races.