Ethical Question for You All

[ausbacker]

No. Every sports person will tell you they gladly accept the risks of their chosen sport, especially at the elite level to "live their dreams" and hopefully be well compensated in the process.

 

[2000army]

what about military personnel putting their lives on the line so we can have oil and materialism

Lol.... that's why we do it.

 

[upstater1]

the question is if you feel worst for ncaa players who get a scholarship when the college make millions off of them and most of them never see any type of professional money

Colleges are bleeding a ton of money because of college football. Even the supposed most lucrative schools like Texas are losing millions. Most football programs hide the fact that they get direct institutional support, student fees, trademark revenue, cost per student subsidy, to make it seem like the program is breaking even, when in reality they are in the hole tens of millions per year.

Now, if you mentioned the coaches who make $2-4 million, then I'd agree with you.

 

[aluminum seats]

If I could become a NFL player right now--full knowing the risks involved--I would in a heartbeat. So, no, I don't feel bad watching. Yeesh.

 

[BrianPat]

I have thinking of starting this thread for some time and maybe in light of the Merriweather issue it is a little relevant.

The question is:

Do you ever consider that you are contributing in some small way to the fact that some, if not most of these healthy young athletes are going to spend their later years as cripples?

What got me thinking along these lines is a friend of mine that has a neck injury from high school football. There is a restriction in his spinal column from improper tackling technique. At times his arm goes mumb and is effictively useless. This condition is inoperable...no surgeon will go near the area. This is from a few years of high school football. Imagine the damage someone like Rodney Harrison sustains from all those years and all those collisions.

Obviously this has not stopped me from being a fan and watching the games, but I know I am in some tiny way contributuing to this reality for my entertainment.

Never give it a second thought ! At this point they ALL know what their getting into, their being paid good money ( 3/4 of them make more in a year then most of us do in a lifetime ) and I think it's the NFL and the Union's responsibility to protect these players, why would I feel any guilt !

I think lot's of them stay in the game too long and those players do suffer in their old age. It took 9, NINE concussions before Troy Aikman decided to retire, where's the logic in that ? The love of the game and being a star drives them ! You can compared that to a store owner that sell cigarettes, should they feel responsible for one of their customers getting cancer or emphysema.

Too many people walking around selling adult diapers nowadays !

 

[emoney_33]

If I could become a NFL player right now--full knowing the risks involved--I would in a heartbeat. So, no, I don't feel bad watching. Yeesh.

Well none of them have it that easy and I'm sure they've put in a TON of work since high school or before to become football players. You COULD have put in that much work as well, but chose not to. Clearly the chance of being an NFL player is NOT worth -all- the risks (including failing to reach the NFL) for the vast majority of us.

 

[Bostonian1962]

If I thought about every problem/issue like that, and how my seven degrees of separation contributed to it, I'd be a miserable person. No I didn't, don't and will never think like that. For the love of God, WHY did I buy the NFL Sunday Ticket? I caused Tom Brady's knee injury two years ago. What if he has arthritis later in life? What if his grief causes him to strike one of his children? What if that child ends up being a mass murder? Why, why did I do it?!

 

[DaBruinz]

It bothers me.

It diminishes my enthusiasm for football.

If effective steps aren't taken to reduce the predictable brain damage from football, I will stop watching or supporting the sport altogether.

Fencer - Have you seriously been hiding under a rock? Football is 100 times safer now than it was back even 20 years ago. Short of wrapping these guys in foam suits that make them look like the Stay-puffed Marshmallow man, there will always be the potential for injury. Always. Just like there is for every single person who gets out of bed every day and does any sort of athletic activity. And it could just be running.

The reality is that the OP makes a gross exaggeration when he says "if not most". I think you'll find that most high school football players don't play ball in college. I think that you'll find that most college players don't play Pro level football. Injuries are a part of all athletic sports. They happen. You know the risks when you play at the College and Pro level. The high school level, yes, the onus is more on the parents, but most know that their kids could get injured. I'd be willing to bet that most who have played High School ball don't have any debilitating injuries. I'll go out on a limb and say that is the case for a slight majority of college ball players as well.

I've been playing hockey since I was 12. I've had injuries. I tore my ACL running playing Dek hockey. I fractured my left pinkie while playing goal as well. I've had numerous bumps and bruises. And my equipment is 10 times safer today than when I was a lad.

It's not going to prevent me from having my kids play. Because I'll teach them the game and how to prepare yourself. How to protect yourself. And I know that stuff happens. But the benefits in terms of character building, team building, and leadership development far outweigh the risk of injury.

On last thing, Fencer, please show me the studies that show that every player who plays football get's brain damage.

 

[MassPats38]

Well none of them have it that easy and I'm sure they've put in a TON of work since high school or before to become football players. You COULD have put in that much work as well, but chose not to. Clearly the chance of being an NFL player is NOT worth -all- the risks (including failing to reach the NFL) for the vast majority of us.

Not sure if I buy that. Players certainly work to get to the NFL, but every single player in the NFL is a physical freak and a superstar at the college level (more like a college athletic legend given how few players make it to the show). Those players represent an extremely gifted minority in society.

If you did not excel at top-level college athletics, to the tune of legend status, you are not an NFL player - plain and simple - and you could do daily Ironman Triatholons for four years and still not be an NFL player. If you think you hit the gym, track, or football camps and somehow become an NFL player, you really don't understand how freakishly good every player in the NFL really is.

A legendary workout warrior without athletic ability would be Rudy in the Notre Dame program, getting thrashed as a permanent member of the practice squad, and would not even make the practice squad cut for an NFL team. Hard work is part of what makes these players better in the NFL and what moves marginal NFL prospects into the zone to make the final cut. It does not transform a couch potato into an NFL athlete or get you a 4.6 40 time at 240 pounds.

That unique ability set is why NFL players get paid the big dollars. Value is a relative concept and the NFL and its popularity creates the market for those players.

 

[emoney_33]

Nope. I don't consider that at all. They knew of the risks of the game going into Pop Warner. They knew of the risks going into high school and in college. In the pros, they're ESPECIALLY aware of the risks, take them, and are compensated handsomely for doing so.

The Pop Warner comment is purely ridiculous, I wouldn't put kids entirely responsible for their future until at least college. Even then, at age 18/19 the mind is still very immature.

 

[Synovia]

the question is if you feel worst for ncaa players who get a scholarship when the college make millions off of them and most of them never see any type of professional money

Feel bad for them? I envy college athletes. My life would be a lot simpler without college loans.

 

[emoney_33]

If I were his coach, that kid would be running laps and gassers until he puked. The first thing that I was taught during my Pop Warner years is to ALWAYS keep my head up to see what I'm hitting. That video states that either (1) those coaches didn't teach that or (2) they did but didn't enforce it.

Yea make a child puke, that'll teach him

 

[emoney_33]

Not sure if I buy that. Players certainly work to get to the NFL, but every single player in the NFL is a physical freak and a superstar at the college level (more like a college athletic legend given how few players make it to the show). Those players represent an extremely gifted minority in society.

0 of them made it to the NFL by being lazy. And not even close to every single one of them is a "physical freak" genetically. Woodhead is certainly not

If you did not excel at top-level college athletics, to the tune of legend status, you are not an NFL player - plain and simple - and you could do daily Ironman Triatholons for four years and still not be an NFL player. If you think you hit the gym, track, or football camps and somehow become an NFL player, you really don't understand how freakishly good every player in the NFL really is.

Hmm well this is completely false, and as a matter of fact even a wrestler who never played college football has a chance to make it to the NFL. Yes having good genes makes it more likely that you will succeed, but no being a genetically physical freak is NOT a prerequisite for the NFL. There are countless proofs of this accross the NFL. So to say "I didn't work because I know I couldn't have made it anyway" is an excuse for not putting in the work. If any of us REALLY wanted to be in the NFL we would have at least tried our damndest. But most of us decided the risks (including failing) were too high.

A legendary workout warrior without athletic ability would be Rudy in the Notre Dame program, getting thrashed as a permanent member of the practice squad, and would not even make the practice squad cut for an NFL team. Hard work is part of what makes these players better in the NFL and what moves marginal NFL prospects into the zone to make the final cut. It does not transform a couch potato into an NFL athlete or get you a 4.6 40 time at 240 pounds.

A couch potato is a life choice. Only people limited by genetics or disease cannot train their body to be able to physically handle being an athlete. Yes it is extremely difficult to attempt to get into it if you didn't start in High School or before, but still not impossible. Although at that point, there are other factors that make the risk of failure greater (e.g. bills).

That unique ability set is why NFL players get paid the big dollars. Value is a relative concept and the NFL and its popularity creates the market for those players.

These guys are human, they've worked their butts off their whole lives in the gym and with training. They were not born with some rare NFL gene, they are not genetically picked out of the universe. The fact of the matter is that part of the small supply is because of how much work it takes to get to and maintain that level without any guarantees.

Yes it's much easier on the superstar athlete and not many of us could have been that superstar even if we worked at 100%. But the NFL is FAR more than just the small percentage of superstars. Every roster has guys that are just hanging on, that aren't genetic freaks, that weren't handed life on a silver platter. These guys are busting their butts to do what they want to do (play in the NFL). So don't give me this woe-is-me bull that you simply had no chance to be an NFL player from birth. (NOTE: I'm speaking in general not you specifically, I don't want to be insensitive to anyone who was born with physical limitations).

Your "points" only apply to the best of the best of the best of athletes. And who can forget that Tom Brady was never a physical freak. He came into the NFL as a skinny slow 6th rounder

 

[aluminum seats]

Well none of them have it that easy and I'm sure they've put in a TON of work since high school or before to become football players. You COULD have put in that much work as well, but chose not to. Clearly the chance of being an NFL player is NOT worth -all- the risks (including failing to reach the NFL) for the vast majority of us.

You think I'm not in the NFL because of lack of effort? Wow, that's really dopey.

 

[MassPats38]

Hmm well this is completely false, and as a matter of fact even a wrestler who never played college football has a chance to make it to the NFL. Yes having good genes makes it more likely that you will succeed, but no being a genetically physical freak is NOT a prerequisite for the NFL. There are countless proofs of this accross the NFL. So to say "I didn't work because I know I couldn't have made it anyway" is an excuse for not putting in the work. If any of us REALLY wanted to be in the NFL we would have at least tried our damndest. But most of us decided the risks (including failing) were too high.

Your "points" only apply to the best of the best of the best of athletes. And who can forget that Tom Brady was never a physical freak. He came into the NFL as a skinny slow 6th rounder

I used "college athletics" rather than college football for that very reason. If you believe you could match up in wrestling against the current MMA champion Brock Lesnar in college wrestling and not be turned into a human pretzel, you are kidding yourself. Leverage skills learned as a top-tier wrestler have applications as a blocker, and Neal did not simply walk off the mat and hear about football - he grew up with football and was well-acquainted with the sport before he ever went pro. The fact he didn't play college ball made him a two-year development project to learn the requisite skills despite his freakish strength and quickness.

If you have ever met a practice squad player on a Division I football team, many of whom were very good high school players, who typically play the role of human tackling dummies, you really have no sense of the athletic ability required to play in the NFL. If you have never run track and field and tried to improve quickness and speed, then you probably lack an understanding of genetic limitations. The same is true of weight training as few will ever bench press 300 pounds, let alone 600 or 700 pounds, regardless of time logged to make those marks. While your "can do" attitude is admirable, it has the ring of Uncle Rico in Napolean Dynamite: "How much you wanna make a bet I can throw a football over them mountains?... Yeah... Coach woulda put me in fourth quarter, we would've been state champions. No doubt. No doubt in my mind. "

I have no clue how much of your commentary is serious, and how much isn't serious. Woodhead and Brady are superhuman athletes. You don't find an NFL arm - you either have an arm or you don't. Throw 30,000 practice throws and I still doubt you can heave a spiral 70 yards. Nor do you suddenly find the NFL speed that Woodhead has. All of these guys, including the guys on the practice squad, have resumes that scream athletic success story.

Fee free to Google the names and prove it to yourself. If you can name one "Joe Blow" of your "countless" success stories who were not incredible athletes and simply worked their way into professional football, feel free to throw some names out there. Also feel free to explain what becomes of all the Division I football players who do not make the NFL every year. You believe they did not make the cut because of a work ethic issue? Any thoughts as to why college teams advertise to recruits how many players have made it to the NFL through their programs - is that about instilling a work ethic? Please.

 

[Synovia]

Hmm well this is completely false, and as a matter of fact even a wrestler who never played college football has a chance to make it to the NFL. Yes having good genes makes it more likely that you will succeed, but no being a genetically physical freak is NOT a prerequisite for the NFL.

Hold on, are you really trying to make the argument that a guy who placed 4th at the NCAA championships as a freshman, 2nd as a sophmore, and won both his junior and senior years, then won the Pan-Am games, the US Freestyle Championships, and then the World Championships, decided he was going to change sports, and was a starting NFL guard 3 years later isn't a physical freak? Are you for real?

 

[Synovia]

A couch potato is a life choice. Only people limited by genetics or disease cannot train their body to be able to physically handle being an athlete. Yes it is extremely difficult to attempt to get into it if you didn't start in High School or before, but still not impossible. Although at that point, there are other factors that make the risk of failure greater (e.g. bills).



These guys are human, they've worked their butts off their whole lives in the gym and with training. They were not born with some rare NFL gene, they are not genetically picked out of the universe. The fact of the matter is that part of the small supply is because of how much work it takes to get to and maintain that level without any guarantees.

Yes it's much easier on the superstar athlete and not many of us could have been that superstar even if we worked at 100%. But the NFL is FAR more than just the small percentage of superstars. Every roster has guys that are just hanging on, that aren't genetic freaks, that weren't handed life on a silver platter. These guys are busting their butts to do what they want to do (play in the NFL). So don't give me this woe-is-me bull that you simply had no chance to be an NFL player from birth. (NOTE: I'm speaking in general not you specifically, I don't want to be insensitive to anyone who was born with physical limitations).

Your "points" only apply to the best of the best of the best of athletes. And who can forget that Tom Brady was never a physical freak. He came into the NFL as a skinny slow 6th rounder

Do you just not understand genetics at all?

I could run every second of my life, and It would stil lbe physically impossible for me to run a 4.4 40. It would probably be impossible for me to run the 4.6 thats slow for a safety my size.

 

[emoney_33]

You think I'm not in the NFL because of lack of effort? Wow, that's really dopey.

So you feel you gave as much effort as a Danny Woodhead to be in the NFL?

I used "college athletics" rather than college football for that very reason. If you believe you could match up in wrestling against the current MMA champion Brock Lesnar in college wrestling and not be turned into a human pretzel, you are kidding yourself. Leverage skills learned as a top-tier wrestler have applications as a blocker, and Neal did not simply walk off the mat and hear about football - he grew up with football and was well-acquainted with the sport before he ever went pro. The fact he didn't play college ball made him a two-year development project to learn the requisite skills despite his freakish strength and quickness.

You claimed that every NFL player was a legend in college. However you want to phrase it, it does nothing for your argument. Obviously it's unlikely that someone who does POOR in college will be successful in their career, no matter what they are in college for. So you would expect all NFL players to have done somewhat well in college.

If you have ever met a practice squad player on a Division I football team, many of whom were very good high school players, who typically play the role of human tackling dummies, you really have no sense of the athletic ability required to play in the NFL. If you have never run track and field and tried to improve quickness and speed, then you probably lack an understanding of genetic limitations. The same is true of weight training as few will ever bench press 300 pounds, let alone 600 or 700 pounds, regardless of time logged to make those marks. While your "can do" attitude is admirable, it has the ring of Uncle Rico in Napolean Dynamite: "How much you wanna make a bet I can throw a football over them mountains?... Yeah... Coach woulda put me in fourth quarter, we would've been state champions. No doubt. No doubt in my mind. "

Anyone who is dedicated enough can eventually bench 300 pounds. Few ever will because few ever are dedicated enough to accomplish it. Your argument that they are born as physical freaks is ridiculous, plan and simple. A better argument is circumstance putting them in an athletic mind frame as they enter high school.

I have no clue how much of your commentary is serious, and how much isn't serious. Woodhead and Brady are superhuman athletes. You don't find an NFL arm - you either have an arm or you don't. Throw 30,000 practice throws and I still doubt you can heave a spiral 70 yards. Nor do you suddenly find the NFL speed that Woodhead has. All of these guys, including the guys on the practice squad, have resumes that scream athletic success story.

You really don't think Brady had an "NFL arm" in 2000 do you? I mean in all honesty? You can argue that ALL professional athletes are "superhuman" because their careers dictate they put more time into it than any of us 9-5'ers can afford. But most people could be as athletic as Woodhead (maybe not as quick) if they worked at it as much as he. Sure we probably can't do that NOW, it's more important that we focus on our own careers and families, but to say that we couldn't have been at that level starting back in high school or before because we weren't "born with it" is absurd.

Fee free to Google the names and prove it to yourself. If you can name one "Joe Blow" of your "countless" success stories who were not incredible athletes and simply worked their way into professional football, feel free to throw some names out there.

This doesn't even make sense. To be a good athlete you need to work your ass off. It's impossible to sit on your couch and be athletic. it's not that they were born athletic, it's that their circumstances and desires played out such that being physically fit/athletic has been their top priority for a long time. I never once intimated that you or I could get off the couch TODAY and hit the gym and join the NFL. I never claimed that some positions (like linemen) don't require a specific genetic body type/size. I never claimed that everyone in the world can be an NFL player if they start exercising. It's extremely lazy to say "I never put all my heart into it because I knew I could never get there anyway". The risk that ALL these non-superstars take is that they will never make it, they accept that risk, I surely would not.

lso feel free to explain what becomes of all the Division I football players who do not make the NFL every year. You believe they did not make the cut because of a work ethic issue?

It's very common logical fallacy that if A -> B implies if B -> A.

Any thoughts as to why college teams advertise to recruits how many players have made it to the NFL through their programs - is that about instilling a work ethic? Please.

I'm sorry that you feel insulted for some reason, but I never once claimed that work ethic alone was a ticket to the NFL. Work ethic alone is not a ticket to success in any career. And we really shouldn't limit a career in football to the NFL. NFL is the height of a career in football, but there ARE other leagues that people get paid to play in.

Anyway, my main point is that I personally was not born with a genetic limitation and the reason I have 0 chance to play in the NFL is because I chose a different path in high school, not because I wasn't born with the right genes. You seem to be hung up by the fact that these guys all "excel" in college athletics, something I've never denied. You attribute it purely to genetics, I attribute it to a lot of factors including work ethic and circumstance.

 

[emoney_33]

Hold on, are you really trying to make the argument that a guy who placed 4th at the NCAA championships as a freshman, 2nd as a sophmore, and won both his junior and senior years, then won the Pan-Am games, the US Freestyle Championships, and then the World Championships, decided he was going to change sports, and was a starting NFL guard 3 years later isn't a physical freak? Are you for real?

Nope, I misread "excel in college athletics" as "excel in college football".

Do you just not understand genetics at all?

I could run every second of my life, and It would stil lbe physically impossible for me to run a 4.4 40. It would probably be impossible for me to run the 4.6 thats slow for a safety my size.

You guys really are just completely missing the point. There was a comment "if I could play in the NFL I would" from someone who undoubtedly put in far less work at TRYING to be in the NFL than any of the practice squad players in the NFL.

These NFL players weren't born into the NFL, even the superstars busted their ass in the gym their whole lives. It's not as simple as "if I could I would".

 

[MassPats38]

(1) So you feel you gave as much effort as a Danny Woodhead to be in the NFL?

(2) You claimed that every NFL player was a legend in college. However you want to phrase it, it does nothing for your argument. Obviously it's unlikely that someone who does POOR in college will be successful in their career, no matter what they are in college for. So you would expect all NFL players to have done somewhat well in college.

(3) Anyone who is dedicated enough can eventually bench 300 pounds. Few ever will because few ever are dedicated enough to accomplish it. Your argument that they are born as physical freaks is ridiculous, plan and simple. A better argument is circumstance putting them in an athletic mind frame as they enter high school.

(4) You really don't think Brady had an "NFL arm" in 2000 do you? I mean in all honesty? You can argue that ALL professional athletes are "superhuman" because their careers dictate they put more time into it than any of us 9-5'ers can afford. But most people could be as athletic as Woodhead (maybe not as quick) if they worked at it as much as he. Sure we probably can't do that NOW, it's more important that we focus on our own careers and families, but to say that we couldn't have been at that level starting back in high school or before because we weren't "born with it" is absurd.

(5) This doesn't even make sense. To be a good athlete you need to work your ass off. It's impossible to sit on your couch and be athletic. it's not that they were born athletic, it's that their circumstances and desires played out such that being physically fit/athletic has been their top priority for a long time. I never once intimated that you or I could get off the couch TODAY and hit the gym and join the NFL. I never claimed that some positions (like linemen) don't require a specific genetic body type/size. I never claimed that everyone in the world can be an NFL player if they start exercising. It's extremely lazy to say "I never put all my heart into it because I knew I could never get there anyway". The risk that ALL these non-superstars take is that they will never make it, they accept that risk, I surely would not.

(6) It's very common logical fallacy that if A -> B implies if B -> A.

(7) I'm sorry that you feel insulted for some reason, but I never once claimed that work ethic alone was a ticket to the NFL. Work ethic alone is not a ticket to success in any career. And we really shouldn't limit a career in football to the NFL. NFL is the height of a career in football, but there ARE other leagues that people get paid to play in.

(8) Anyway, my main point is that I personally was not born with a genetic limitation and the reason I have 0 chance to play in the NFL is because I chose a different path in high school, not because I wasn't born with the right genes. You seem to be hung up by the fact that these guys all "excel" in college athletics, something I've never denied. You attribute it purely to genetics, I attribute it to a lot of factors including work ethic and circumstance.

(1) To those with an understanding of the sport, I never had a shot, nor do many rational human beings, regardless of effort.

(2) I said they were superstars, or 1%'ers, with the genetic skill set to make it, and work got them the rest of the way. Feel free to refer to the Rudy reference in my first post.

(3) If so, give me the record bench presses for female competitive powerlifters of all weight classes. Not true. If you haven't done it yourself, start hitting the weights.

(4) Are you saying he didn't? Have you actually watched the guy his whole career and replayed his games at Michigan. Give me a break. That is just ignorant. Why was he drafted at all?

(5) I never said you didn't have to work. You need base genetic potential in strength, size and speed plus work You typically don't get to the pros by loafing, by people do on pure ability without work.

(6) I don't care to debate logic and argument in response to an irrational argument.

(7) I don't take offense to your argument. As it appears you have never actually played competitive athletics, your arguments are simply ridiculous. For those who have played and know what they did to fall short, your theories are insulting. I work out, but I am no athlete but have played football, basketball, baseball and track and spent years lifting and running, so I do have some clue as to genetics. I am not sure you do.

(8) You are, you apparently are just ignorant to them.