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ESPN: Kraft says a Deal is "Possible"

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by groundgame, Mar 8, 2011.

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  1. groundgame

    groundgame Rookie

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    ESPN.com

    WASHINGTON -- As commissioner Roger Goodell, union executive director DeMaurice Smith and their negotiating teams are at a federal mediator's office Tuesday for a 13th day of NFL labor talks, influential Patriots owner Robert Kraft said Monday from Israel that he believes a labor deal is "possible."
  2. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    One positive sign might be that Dee left the pitbull (Kessler) in his crate at his office this AM... The same one Kraft tangled with last week. The same one who drove Upshaw to threaten an end to the salary cap forever back in 2006 which was what paniced the owners at the time to agree to an 11th hour CBA that was untenable for them long term.
  3. BlueThunder

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  4. Sicilian

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    This just in. Things can sometimes happen. Unless they don't. More at 11.
  5. DarrylStingley

    DarrylStingley Rookie

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    It is also possible that I will make a major bowel movement some time in the next three days.

    It might even be likely. Maybe.
  6. cmasspatsfan

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    Kraft says this everytime they put a microphone in front of his face.
  7. PatsWickedPissah

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    Sun to rise in East tomorrow!
  8. MoLewisrocks

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    The latest tweets seem to agree that what is left to settle is the split and the sides are apparently still $750-800M apart with the union insisting they will not make any more financial concessions absent more financial data on individual teams (they already get reams of it on the league as a whole and have been offered more on the same basis and rejected that which kind of underscores the real desire here is for information they can use against owners - the same reason the league is reluctant to release that kind of data because the owners could then use it against each other...).

    According to "sources" the rookie wage scale and other minor issues (believe it or not that likely includes an 18 game schedule) have been pretty much settled.

    Rather than risk killing the collective beauty of our golden goose or starting an owners tong war only to ultimately find out through discovery that while some owners pay their kids or old cronies more than they're worth to be members of an organization...they do have the data that backs up increasing shortfalls that will effect capital improvement and revenue expansion league wide which is the only data that matters...

    I say split the difference knowing nobody including Judge Doty lives or works forever and Dee has political ambitions that will likely result in his moving on sooner than later and let's get on with the hoopla of FA and the drama of the draft and the back nine of the Brady/Manning debate before Favre decides to unretire again...
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2011
  9. townes

    townes Rookie

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    If a deal gets done fans will have Doty to thank, as the owners had no intention of negotiating until he cut off their slimeball move to still get paid. The fact that owners violated the collective bargaining agreement by getting Direct TV to pay them MORE if there was no football shows just what a bunch of greedy scumbags they really are. They signed a deal which required them to maximize profits that would be shared and then cut a side deal that screwed the players over and violated their obligations under the CBA. Even if there is a deal Doty should revisit the matter and give the players punitive damages for this chicanery.
  10. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There is a reason the ruling isn't a slam dunk on appeal and that is the one Burbank acknowledged which is the league also has an obligation to do what is in it's own best interest as well, and facing a potential work stoppage in a union operation it was sound business practice for the league to extract a promise to pay regardless. Otherwise both sides potentially lose money that is unrecoverable...duh
  11. PatsWickedPissah

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  12. MoLewisrocks

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    It's really beginning to sound like the NFLPA was the one who never had any intention of negotiating... The league has made substantial concessions on the financial data it is willing to make available to the union. They won't even look at it because they want to see each teams books so they can then spin their unwillingness to negotiate as a somehow noble cause...

    This is the same union that will fight to the death to protect it's members who are paid millions and want lifelong health benefits from these same employers from employer blood testing for illegal drugs that put their careers if not their future health in jeopardy. Same Union that fought for Mike Vick's right to retain $20M in signing bonus money even though he was no longer able to play due to federal conviction and incarceration and his illegal behavior tore a franchise apart and damaged it's and the league's brand. And created a situation where a drafted player or FA can simply show up when he has to but make no effort to work on his conditioning or his craft and still pocket $30-40M that would have been better spent on proven players or players who are willing to work for and earn their money. The NFLPA is a real noble outfit. Now they want to prove to us that Ralph Wilson or Mike Brown or even Jerry Jones pays himself or his kids or his brother-in-law too much to be part of a privately owned organization... Welcome to America, NFLPA.

    Fans will eventually realize that the side that pulled the trigger that killed their beloved golden goose wasn't being noble, just equally greedy and self absorbed. And because they believe decertification to be their ace in the hole, that will be the union.

    http://www.profootballtalk.nbcsport...nts-more-financial-information-than-it-needs/
  13. McCourty Island

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    So basically you're complaining about a union protecting its members, interesting. And yes, if you are going to cry poor and demand another $1B dollars from the players then I don't blame the union for asking for more detailed expense information.

    No one cares what the owners are paying their family members until the owners point to lowered profit figures as the reason why they want the extra $1B off the top. If the lowered profit figures are coming from increasing their own salaries then thats a way for them to manipulate the profit figures.

    Your link doesn't work BTW.
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2011
  14. Deus Irae

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    The key is what the owners are not willing to show. After all, it was the problems between the owners that were the real issues in the last CBA discussions, and hiding them when supposedly opening the books could just be one way for the owners to force the players to deal with the so-called problems of individual team inequities.

    I'm not saying that such is the case, but I'd expect that such a possibility is on the minds of the union negotiators.
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2011
  15. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Just as a follow up.... Florio, who was initially siding with the owners about the 'books' concessions, has already begun backtracking.

    NFLPA wants more financial information than it needs | ProFootballTalk

    League, union dispute the contents of the players’ past information demands | ProFootballTalk

    Watching him flail around as he tries to play all sides is as amusing as any of the press releases by the involved parties.
  16. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Another follow up, as Florio starts to get the point of the Union through his head, and to get a real grasp on why it wants to see all the books:

    The league needs to give up more than profit information | ProFootballTalk

    The past (and present) has given the players good reason not to trust the owners.
  17. PatsWickedPissah

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    Bit if Florio's column was accurate, that expense information was offered to the Union.

    Secondly, so what? Not many corporations have employees who make far more than the CEO/owner in salary.
  18. Deus Irae

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    What the players make is irrelevant to this particular aspect of the bargaining, PWP. This is about owners with a history of 'shaving' the numbers now expecting the union to buy their version of the numbers on faith.

    The union would be foolish to go along with that.

    And, read Florio's column again. You'll find his follow up demonstrates that not all the monies were to be provided as data with the owners' offer.
  19. PatsWickedPissah

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    Unusual as it is, I wish then that the owners would provide additional information on the following "expenses"...salaries, expenses and other compensation taken by the owner himself and an aggregate number for that taken by all blood and marital relatives on the payroll. An independent audit report with such numbers would prevent the problem of individual employees from being singled out and embarrassed though it should expose any individual owners skimming disproportionate amounts from the top and crying poormouth. Let the chips fall where they may.

    However players' salaries are relevant in that no union hype over an owner taking several million for himself as compensation.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2011
  20. borg

    borg Rookie

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    Are you saying that it is wrong for an owner of a business to pay himself a salary?
  21. PatsWickedPissah

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    Au contraire

    I'm saying that the Union needn't get their panties all atwist in situations where an owner pays himself a several million dollar salary, especially given the salary and expenses (healthcare, meals, lodging, financial and other free advice services) of employees.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2011
  22. Deus Irae

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    If you're claiming a (just an example) $20 million profit, and not noting that you paid yourself $5 million in salary on top of the $20 million, you should expect some twisted panties on the other side. Brown paying himself a "GM bonus" is a scumbag move.
  23. BradyManny

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    You are leaving out the fact that it was the owners who opted out - it is the owners who want to pay the players' less.

    The owners initiated the process. The players were entered into negotiations without any desire to do so.

    If I was the absolute best in the entire world at what I did, and what I did was a very specific field to begin with (like professional football), and I was completely and 100% irreplaceable at my job (as the NFL players are), and my employer told me I was going to need a paycut, my response - and I assume the response of anyone in this situation - would be "No." My mindset would not jump to negotiation.

    The reality is, the players are the only party in this negotiation so far that understands that one side cannot exist without the other. The owner's "lockout insurance" with the TV deals has prevented them from seeing that reality. Now that is called into question, that might make things a little different.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2011
  24. lamafist

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    The owners' taking a salary isn't really an issue. I believe the poster who brought it up did so as an (unlikely) example of how easy it is to disguise profit by trumping up expenses. A more likely scenario involves owners giving sweetheart deals to their other business holdings, like, say, Kraft overpaying the real estate arm of his holding group for the land for Patriot Place. The NFL Network is a huge source of potential odd accounting arrangements -- are teams getting full compensation for any stadium licensing rights they retain from the house network?

    Essentially, what this comes down to, is that the NFL is trying to justify asking for the players to take a collective billion-dollar pay-cut by saying that under the previous CBA, their decline in profitability hurt their ability to reinvest in the growth of of their franchises and the NFL -- and they're asking the NFLPA to take their word that it's necessary.

    The problem is that the owners can't agree on how much more information to provide. I'd imagine that Kraft would readily hand over his books -- considering the way he's grown the NE Patriots from one of the league's least valuable teams to one of its most, he probably carries around his financial statements in his wallet the way a guy would pictures of his supermodel girlfriend or a big fish he caught. It's the teams like the Browns, Bengals, Bills, Niners, Lions, etc. who haven't done much to maximize other revenue streams that are dragging collective profitability numbers down who don't want the teams' books released, because it will become apparent that they haven't been attempting to reinvest in the growth of their franchises since long before the last CBA was signed.

    Essentially, what you have are deadbeat owners who want a handout from the league to do what the Snyders, Krafts, Jones and Johnsons have been doing all along, and the non-deadbeat owners don't want to pony it up by bringing more revenue streams into the profit sharing system, so instead, the owners, collectively, are trying to head off internal arguments by getting the money back from the players.
  25. Deus Irae

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    It's not "unlikely". It's been proven, in court, to have happened. Mike Brown took a GM "Bonus", and Braman gave himself a $7.5 million salary.
  26. lamafist

    lamafist Rookie

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    Another point worth noting is that if talks break down and the league and its players end up taking this to the courts, the owners will have to disclose all of this financial information during the discovery process.

    This raises the question of why the owners would risk tanking the negotiations over something they'd be forced to do anyway if the negotiations get tanked.

    Turns out this isn't really a negotiation over whether the owners will give the players the information they're asking for so much as it is a stare-down over how much its going to cost the owners to not have to disclose it. So far the owners have offered to lower the cool billion dollars their asking for by $200 million, and that's not going to cut it.
  27. lamafist

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    Huh.

    When was this, exactly -- I mean, didn't Braman sell the Eagles like 10 years ago?
  28. Deus Irae

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  29. PatsWickedPissah

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    I disagree about the panties, but not about the scumbag.

    A let's say $300M business that nets less than 10% after tax profit margin is not even close to out of line. It would not be outrageous to 'pay' the chief honcho & owner a few million. Especially considering that several employees (players) could make far more. Even adding back the $5M salary to profitability STILL makes it well under a very modest 10% margin.

    That said, since it's the owners who assert that they need another Billion of the gross revenue, I don't fault the Union for taking the position of wanting this personal ownership and family info as there could well be a couple egregious examples where the difference between a claimed business "loss" and modest profitability could be owner compensation, owner over the top expenses and relatives making big bucks on the payroll. (I don't mean you Jonathan Kraft) But given the preceding paragraph's example, the public has no idea what business profit margins are and I don't trust the Union NOT to make mountains out of molehills using selected snips of this info.
  30. Deus Irae

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    It's not outrageous to pay it, PWP. It is outrageous to pay it and then to hide it when you're in a revenue sharing system.

    What really annoys me about this CBA situation is that I generally hate the modern unions because, like so many other ideas that had their good points, they've become perverted parodies of what they once were, yet I'm basically being forced to side with them because the owners can't get their crap together and bargain honestly.
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