Eric Moore

[E Belichick Unum]

The best candidate went at #7. That's 17+33 trade range. The other one supposedly had a medical red flag on the Pats' board but still went at #14. There weren't any other good OLB candidates.

Hell, they could have moved up to two and taken Von Miller, who was that 3/4 stud outside linebacker. Would you have complained about a draft that had Von Miller and Ras-I Dowling as the Patriots first two draft picks? I would have been doing cartwheels.

 

[Sciz]

Hell, they could have moved up to two and taken Von Miller, who was that 3/4 stud outside linebacker. Would you have complained about a draft that had Von Miller and Ras-I Dowling as the Patriots first two draft picks? I would have been doing cartwheels.

With how much Denver liked Miller, there's no way they were getting to 2 for any less than 17, 28, and 33. And even then, Miller is about the exact opposite of the McGinest prototype.

 

[Shelterdog]

Hell, they could have moved up to two and taken Von Miller, who was that 3/4 stud outside linebacker. Would you have complained about a draft that had Von Miller and Ras-I Dowling as the Patriots first two draft picks? I would have been doing cartwheels.

Von Miller may eventually be a very good pro but teams ran right over him all season long; he's too weak to fend off college offensive lineman in the run game. He's not a clear fit.

 

[DaBruinz]

Hell, they could have moved up to two and taken Von Miller, who was that 3/4 stud outside linebacker. Would you have complained about a draft that had Von Miller and Ras-I Dowling as the Patriots first two draft picks? I would have been doing cartwheels.

Miller isn't going to be a "3-4" Stud OLB. Miller is best suited for 4-3 OLB.. And, even then, I'm not sure he's going to be a "stud". I said way back that whomever took Miller in the top 10 should be fired. I stand by that statement. Miller got a LOT of help. Miller is also not instinctual. He's a read/react type of guy and he can and does get burned by it because he's not alway s quick on it.

 

[Fencer]

Development, deshmelopment. We need guys who are stars right out of the gate, like Vrabel and Bruschi.

LOL. :singing:

 

[DaBruinz]

Let me repost this. The Patriots do not blitz their inside linebackers very often, they either fill the gaps or drop back in coverage. That leaves the OLBs to apply pressure.

You can "repost" it all you want, but you still aren't going to be correct. Rushing the ILBs is different than BLITZING the ILBs. As I stated, the Pats defense is predicated on being able to RUSH the QB from any one of the four LB positions.

Belichick's defense is based off of a stud nose tackle. That is where it starts, withoput one it doesn't work. The nose is responsible for forcing a double team, clogging up the middle, forcing the running back to go wide. That leaves the two ends to force the offensive line into the backfield and not allowing the running back to get around the edge. The middle libebackers are responsible for filling the holes that are created when the ends push the offensive line into the backfield. That is the reason why the ILB in the Belichick system is so active, and why Mayo got so many tackles last year. That leaves the two outside linebackers to aply pressure on the passer and applying back side pressure on the running back who has been forced wide. Sometimes they run stunts, but the Pats don't run a lot of them. Sometimes they blitz inside guys, or a DB, but the OLB is responsible for pass rush in passing situations and storming the backfield on running plays. If there is no pressure from the edge then you are relying on your ends for that pressure, and football is stacked against that happening. Tackles and guards are way too good in this league to get beaten consistently, especially by defensive ends in a 3/4 defense. You need that quick powerful guy coming off of the edge for the defense to really work well.

False. BB's 3-4 Defense is based off of having 3 good D-linemen who can tie up their assigned O-lineman and control the gaps so that the LBs can either rush the Passer or stop the run unhindered. Again, it's about being able to bring a LB from different parts of the field. NOT just about bringing the OLBs.

That is why Belichick has had such a hard time replacing McGinnist, finding that 6'6", 275 Lb OLB who can run a 4.5 is almost impossible drafting where the Pats usually draft and that is why I am so upset that the Pats didn't get their guy this year. They had the draft picks and the trading partners to go get one, and they took an offensive lineman who is a project instead.

McGinest didn't run a 4.5. McGinest had excellent timing and explosion, but didn't run a 4.5.

According to Belichick, Solder was "THEIR GUY". They weren't looking at any of the DE/OLB conversion projects. You seem to forget that it took guys like Bruschi, Vrabel and yes, even McGinest a few years to get comfortable with the defense and their assignments.

 

[DaBruinz]

The best candidate went at #7. That's 17+33 trade range. The other one supposedly had a medical red flag on the Pats' board but still went at #14. There weren't any other good OLB candidates.

OMG.. Now you've done it.. You've used facts to dispel his myth.. Everyone run.. His head is gonna explode!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Deus Irae]

The best candidate went at #7. That's 17+33 trade range. The other one supposedly had a medical red flag on the Pats' board but still went at #14. There weren't any other good OLB candidates.

The 2011 draft is a situation where need meets opportunity for the Patriots. Most coaches and general managers at the NFL Combine last month agreed that the draft was deep along the defensive line and at outside linebacker for 3-4 teams. Those are the two spots where teams looking to improve the pass rush would look first.

Stats reflects need for more pass rush - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

 

[jays52]

When properly executed a gap pressure is by far the most effective method of disrupting the passer. It's much harder to slide against, directly in the QB's face, and the vacated zones take more time for receivers to reach.

Belichick has always used effective pressure from his inside linebackers, often in conjunction with exterior pressure. Inside backers coming with a peripheral defender combined with a tall end clog all immediate passing lanes (specifically the hots), and form an effective pinch. If the QB slides or flushes away from the outside player the ILB gets the stat. If he flushes away from the ILB, the peripheral defender gets it. If you have a safety who can blitz, all the better because he can run down a QB who beats the angle on the backer before he can get rid of it.

True, the Patriots hardly ever run blitz, but they sure as hell dial it up in the passing game.

Outside pressure is the single most overrated, most overhyped concept in football, and McGinnest ran closer to 5.4 than he did 4.5. Besides, we should be talking about hand in the dirt players who can win in sub and coverage schemes. Blitz schemes don't beat great quarterbacks. Winning individually in the line and coverage does.

 

[Ring 6]

You can "repost" it all you want, but you still aren't going to be correct. Rushing the ILBs is different than BLITZING the ILBs. As I stated, the Pats defense is predicated on being able to RUSH the QB from any one of the four LB positions.

How exactly does a LB rush the passer without blitzing?

False. BB's 3-4 Defense is based off of having 3 good D-linemen who can tie up their assigned O-lineman and control the gaps so that the LBs can either rush the Passer or stop the run unhindered. Again, it's about being able to bring a LB from different parts of the field. NOT just about bringing the OLBs.

This is incorrect. BBs 3-4 defense is a 2 gap where each player in the front 7 is essentially one on one with a blocker they play the gap on either side of. It is not a DL tie up blockers so the LBs run free defense. LBs are not 'unhindered' in this defense they must cover a specific area, with the ILBs it is between the C and T, and the G will block him. We do not assign a DL to tie up the G.



quote]McGinest didn't run a 4.5. McGinest had excellent timing and explosion, but didn't run a 4.5. [/quote]
Correct. McGinest was a fast 270lber, but slow as LBs in general go.

According to Belichick, Solder was "THEIR GUY". They weren't looking at any of the DE/OLB conversion projects. You seem to forget that it took guys like Bruschi, Vrabel and yes, even McGinest a few years to get comfortable with the defense and their assignments.

Solder was probably the highest rated player left on their board and was at a postion of extreme need. If there were a DE/OLB they had graded as high as Solder, then he may have chosen him, but they may have still taken Solder because LT protecting the franchises backside is about as critical as a need can get.

 

[Ring 6]

When properly executed a gap pressure is by far the most effective method of disrupting the passer. It's much harder to slide against, directly in the QB's face, and the vacated zones take more time for receivers to reach.

Belichick has always used effective pressure from his inside linebackers, often in conjunction with exterior pressure. Inside backers coming with a peripheral defender combined with a tall end clog all immediate passing lanes (specifically the hots), and form an effective pinch. If the QB slides or flushes away from the outside player the ILB gets the stat. If he flushes away from the ILB, the peripheral defender gets it. If you have a safety who can blitz, all the better because he can run down a QB who beats the angle on the backer before he can get rid of it.

True, the Patriots hardly ever run blitz, but they sure as hell dial it up in the passing game.

Outside pressure is the single most overrated, most overhyped concept in football, and McGinnest ran closer to 5.4 than he did 4.5.

I think we need to distinguish the base from the sub packages also.
BB doesn't blitz a whole lot in the base, he just uses one LB, most often OLB as the 4th rusher. As you said, he blitzes a lot in the sub, and it does come from everywhere.
I definitely agree with you that the key of most blitzes are to get disruption flushing the QB to another defender, and that outside pressure is overrated, moreso each year as offense continue to evolve to short routes, drops, and quicker plays to negate those outside rushers.
30 years ago, outside rushers had plenty of time to get to the QB on the slow developing pass plays that were favored by offenses in those days. Walsh started the trend of rhythm offenses that get rid of the ball before you can disrupt the QB, and ever since it has moved further in that direction consistently. Look at the number of slants, bubble screens, RB screens, and shotgun plays thrown less than 5 yards downfield thee days, plays that it is almost impossible to get a sack on. The percentage of those is increasing year to year.

 

[Sciz]

Stats reflects need for more pass rush - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

It was a great draft for attacking 3-4 personnel. Not so much for the Pats' scheme. I'll gladly respond to any names you'd like to throw out there.


And I think Chung is a sleeper to add 4 sacks or so. He definitely showed some blitzing talent his first year.

 

[Ring 6]

It was a great draft for attacking 3-4 personnel. Not so much for the Pats' scheme. I'll gladly respond to any names you'd like to throw out there.


And I think Chung is a sleeper to add 4 sacks or so. He definitely showed some blitzing talent his first year.

I think that Chung is going to be used more like Rodney Harrison going forward, and I've never seen a safety blitz more than Rodney did as a Patriot. Chung seems to have that same type of mentality, and I think the Dowling pick turns into a cover safety/nickel who can free up Chung as a blitzer more often.
Rodney didnt get many sacks, but was a HUGE part of the sub package pass rush. He would come hard on the blitz, and the QB would need to get rid of the ball before seeing whether the RB would make the block or not, because Rodney took him on at full speed. In his career as a Pat, he probably forced more early throws than any DL or LB on the team

 

[Sciz]

I think that Chung is going to be used more like Rodney Harrison going forward, and I've never seen a safety blitz more than Rodney did as a Patriot. Chung seems to have that same type of mentality, and I think the Dowling pick turns into a cover safety/nickel who can free up Chung as a blitzer more often.
Rodney didnt get many sacks, but was a HUGE part of the sub package pass rush. He would come hard on the blitz, and the QB would need to get rid of the ball before seeing whether the RB would make the block or not, because Rodney took him on at full speed. In his career as a Pat, he probably forced more early throws than any DL or LB on the team

Yeah, Chung definitely needs to be blitzing rather than in man coverage on slot WRs. That got to be painful to watch at times. :bricks:

I won't get my hopes up for another Rodney, though. No DB in NFL history has as many sacks as he does. Most of those were as a Charger, though.

Random fact: Rodney put up a 6 sack and 6 pick season in 2000 on a 1-15 Chargers team. Their one win was by 1 point

 

[Deus Irae]

It was a great draft for attacking 3-4 personnel. Not so much for the Pats' scheme. I'll gladly respond to any names you'd like to throw out there.


And I think Chung is a sleeper to add 4 sacks or so. He definitely showed some blitzing talent his first year.

No offense intended, but listing and responding to specific names is useless. There is nothing you're going to tell me that's going to be convincing proof if we disagree, and vice versa, because there's no knowable answer. The board's ongoing battles about the Clay Matthews pick are a perfect example of that, and he's a DPOY candidate sort of player in Green Bay.

The reality is that there was a broad consensus that this year had a lot of good DE/OLB prospects available, and Belichick passed on them for one reason or another.

Just for one easy example (that I don't care to argue, am not saying was a good or bad move, and am just using because it's an obvious one), you could insist that Heyward would have been a bad call, and I could disagree with you while noting that Pittsburgh's got a pretty good track record at the position. You could talk about the differences between the two systems, and I could talk about the Patriots being able to mold the guy from the beginning along with Belichick's supposed genius when it comes to finding ways to use players. And so on, and so on.

Hell, we could always just bring in BOR and PNM for another round of Connor Barwin discussions.

 

[E Belichick Unum]

When properly executed a gap pressure is by far the most effective method of disrupting the passer. It's much harder to slide against, directly in the QB's face, and the vacated zones take more time for receivers to reach.

Belichick has always used effective pressure from his inside linebackers, often in conjunction with exterior pressure. Inside backers coming with a peripheral defender combined with a tall end clog all immediate passing lanes (specifically the hots), and form an effective pinch. If the QB slides or flushes away from the outside player the ILB gets the stat. If he flushes away from the ILB, the peripheral defender gets it. If you have a safety who can blitz, all the better because he can run down a QB who beats the angle on the backer before he can get rid of it.

True, the Patriots hardly ever run blitz, but they sure as hell dial it up in the passing game.

Outside pressure is the single most overrated, most overhyped concept in football, and McGinnest ran closer to 5.4 than he did 4.5. Besides, we should be talking about hand in the dirt players who can win in sub and coverage schemes. Blitz schemes don't beat great quarterbacks. Winning individually in the line and coverage does.

In 13 years, Teddy Bruschi had 30.5 sacks. Teddy was a great LB for the Pats, but 30.5 over 13 years is hardly a stud pass rushing ILB.

As for outside pressure being overrated, you are incorrect. A stud OLB applied outside pressure on every passing play, he has to be accounted for in the offensive scheme and that overrated outside pressure forces the QB to throw the ball sooner than if there is no outside pressue (see the Patriots highlight film from 2008, 2009, 2010). Let's look at thar dreadful playoff loss to the Ravens, the pass rush was in Brady's face early in the game, it even scored a touchdown on a sack. It was in his head for the rest of the game, in the offensive line's head the rest of the game also.

There is nothing wrong with wanting the Patriots to take a pass rusher, some people believed that it was their biggest need in the draft, but taking a tackle that by all accounts needs a lot of time in the weight room before he can actually play at the NFL level qualifies as a "project". The Patriots pass rush sucked! When it needed pressure it couldn't generate any. The only time it came through was when Cunningham pressured Manning into that interception, proving my point. Outside pressure changes the game, contrary to what has been posed here, the Patriots do not apply inside pressure. Mayo had two sacks last year, and 175 tackles. Spikes had zero sacks, Guyton had three sacks. So, all of that vaunted inside pressure, they totaled 5 sacks for the year. Add that total to Ninkos and TBC and you get a decent pass rushing OLB.

If the Pats cannot generate pressure from the edge this year they will not go 14-2 again, the DBs will get tourched again, they will be near last in third down defense again and near last in opposing QB rating again. It is rocket science, and Belichick's defenses aren't all that sneaky anyway, he uses formations and substitutions.

 

[BlueThunder]

In 13 years, Teddy Bruschi had 30.5 sacks. Teddy was a great LB for the Pats, but 30.5 over 13 years is hardly a stud pass rushing ILB.

As for outside pressure being overrated, you are incorrect. A stud OLB applied outside pressure on every passing play, he has to be accounted for in the offensive scheme and that overrated outside pressure forces the QB to throw the ball sooner than if there is no outside pressue (see the Patriots highlight film from 2008, 2009, 2010). Let's look at thar dreadful playoff loss to the Ravens, the pass rush was in Brady's face early in the game, it even scored a touchdown on a sack. It was in his head for the rest of the game, in the offensive line's head the rest of the game also.

There is nothing wrong with wanting the Patriots to take a pass rusher, some people believed that it was their biggest need in the draft, but taking a tackle that by all accounts needs a lot of time in the weight room before he can actually play at the NFL level qualifies as a "project". The Patriots pass rush sucked! When it needed pressure it couldn't generate any. The only time it came through was when Cunningham pressured Manning into that interception, proving my point. Outside pressure changes the game, contrary to what has been posed here, the Patriots do not apply inside pressure. Mayo had two sacks last year, and 175 tackles. Spikes had zero sacks, Guyton had three sacks. So, all of that vaunted inside pressure, they totaled 5 sacks for the year. Add that total to Ninkos and TBC and you get a decent pass rushing OLB.

If the Pats cannot generate pressure from the edge this year they will not go 14-2 again, the DBs will get tourched again, they will be near last in third down defense again and near last in opposing QB rating again. It is rocket science, and Belichick's defenses aren't all that sneaky anyway, he uses formations and substitutions.

I think BB sees a lot in Moore and Cunningham along the "pressure the QB" lines...What was available or what he would have to give up to move up and get the one or two players that he thought would fit his needs wasn't worth it.....

Maybe I'm just trying to justify what BB did in the draft...but last year I was the same and it sure looks like BB knew what he was doing all along....

IN BB I TRUST :rocker:

 

[Shelterdog]

It was a great draft for attacking 3-4 personnel. Not so much for the Pats' scheme. I'll gladly respond to any names you'd like to throw out there.

I'd put it differently. Based on how 3-4 teams actually drafted-and remember the Ravens and Jets could both use young OLBs-the 3-4 teams generally liked the talent at DE (Wilkerson/Heyward/JJ Watt going to Texas) put not at OLB. Quinn, Kerrigan, and Cameron Jordan are going to be 4-3 ends, Houston lasted until the third round, Ayers is going to be a 4-3 OLB, etc.

 

[TruthSeeker]

There is nothing wrong with wanting the Patriots to take a pass rusher, some people believed that it was their biggest need in the draft, but taking a tackle that by all accounts needs a lot of time in the weight room before he can actually play at the NFL level qualifies as a "project".

You may want to define a project as someone needing weight room work, but I see this as about the simplest thing to fix on someone coming into the NFL. I'd be much more concerned if he really struggled with footwork, for example.

 

[Shelterdog]

There is nothing wrong with wanting the Patriots to take a pass rusher, some people believed that it was their biggest need in the draft, but taking a tackle that by all accounts needs a lot of time in the weight room before he can actually play at the NFL level qualifies as a "project".

It's just not true that by all accounts he needs a lot of weight room time before he can play in the NFL--most observers think he'll be able to start as a rookie.