Eric Mangini: How the jets stalled the Pats' offense

[SVN]

Dont think lloyd sucks but he isnt want they really want or is expected him to be ..a moss like receiver. Both the TE's are hurt and that also has somethign to do with this . They really need to ride welker until both AH and Gronk return full strength and stop forcing deep throws to lloyd.

 

[ATippett56]

There is a definite drop off in offensive line performance from Mankins and Connolly to Thomas and McDonald.

 

[everlong]

One of the funny things both nationally and locally is that everybody is talking about how the Jets basically found ways to lose this game with the Hill drop and the bunny pick Sanchez threw and there's absolutely no doubt that's true.

Conversely how different are the numbers and perception if Lloyd doesn't have those two big drops? The first was was good for twenty something yards and would have kept that driving going and resulted in no worse than 3 points. The second would have been a TD good from 30-ish.

I think people giving up him are going way over the top but let's call it what is was an awful performance on his part. I'm not disagreeing on them needing a Gaffney circa 2007 merely that Lloyd makes those catches and it does open up the field more and turns a marginal at best offensive performance into a decent one. The secondary is still by far a much bigger issue.

For every shoot yourself in the foot play the Jets had the Patriots had one to match.

 

[Kid~Brady]

That’s why New England couldn’t run.

Huh? I thought we rushed for over 100 yards?

 

[ivanvamp]

Good defenses can cover the non-Welker WRs one-on-one and clog the middle, and hold the Patriots in check by doing it. It's been that way since Moss was traded away. You buying it, or not, doesn't really matter. It is what it is.

From 2010-2012, the Patriots have played 43 games.

2010
Opp - Pts - Yds
Cin - 38 - 376
NYJ - 14 - 291 (L)
Buf - 38 - 445
Mia - 41 - 265
Bal - 23 - 394
SD - 23 - 179
Min - 28 - 362
Cle - 14 - 283 (L)
Pit - 39 - 453
Ind - 31 - 346
Det - 45 - 447
NYJ - 45 - 405
Chi - 36 - 475
GB - 31 - 249
Buf - 34 - 348
Mia - 38 - 502
NYJ (P) - 21 - 372 (L)

2011
Mia - 38 - 622
SD - 35 - 504
Buf - 31 - 495 (L)
Oak - 31 - 409
NYJ - 30 - 446
Dal - 20 - 371
Pit - 17 - 213 (L)
NYG - 20 - 438 (L)
NYJ - 37 - 389
KC - 34 - 380
Phi - 38 - 457
Ind - 31 - 362
Was - 34 - 431
Den - 41 - 451
Mia - 27 - 400
Buf - 49 - 480
Den (P) - 45 - 509
Bal (P) - 23 - 330
NYG (P) - 17 - 349 (L)

2012
Ten - 34 - 390
Ari - 18 - 387 (L)
Bal - 30 - 396 (L)
Buf - 52 - 580
Den - 31 - 444
Sea - 23 - 475 (L)
NYJ - 29 - 381

So in their 43 games, they've been held to fewer than 20 points just 5 times, never below 14. They've been held to fewer than 24 points just 12 times. They've been held to fewer than 300 total yards just 6 times.

Average loss: 20.5 ppg, 369.9 ypg

So yes, they've been held "in check" a handful of times over the past 3 seasons, but it shows you just how incredible this offense is, that to be held "in check" really means holding NE to the low 20's in points, and about 350 yards of total offense.

Nobody actually shuts this team down though. The best that opposing defenses can usually hope for is to keep the Pats' offense in check.

 

[ThatllMoveTheChains!!!]

Let's look at the turning point for each of the Pats drives that didn't result in a TD:

#1 - Gained a quick 20+ yards but a 1 yard gain by Vereen was followed by 2 looks deep downfield. Punt

#3 - Gained 30 yards but a holding penalty changed a 3rd-n-3 to a 2nd-n-20, which the Pats couldn't convert. Punt

#4 - Gained 15 yards on 2 runs, but a no gain by Ridley was followed by a Brady sack. Punt

#5 - Gained 53 yards (21 on the ground) but Woodhead couldn't convert a 3rd-n-2. Punt

#7 - Gained 27 yards on the ground but a 1 yard gain by Vereen was followed by 2 ill-advised WR screens. Punt

#8 - 11 yard gain by Lloyd wiped out by OPI. Couldn't convert from 1st-n-20. Punt

#9 - Gained 54 yards in 90 seconds. FG

#10 - Gained 54 yards in OT. Couldn't convert 3rd-n-6 on outside pass to Hernandez. FG

So putting these in a group:

#1, #4, #7 - Impatient with running game resulted in poor down/distance. The Jets showed no signs of consistently stopping the run and yet the Pats seemed to abandon the run at the first sign of resistance.

#3, #8 - Penalties resulted in poor down/distance. Didn't see a replay of the Thomas holding call but watching the live feed I didn't see anything wrong. The Lloyd OPI was technically the right call but it is rarely called. Not sure why the Pats seem to be targeted with OPI calls more than other teams.

#5, #10 - Poor play calls on 3rd down. Woodhead is not a good option on 3rd and short. The Pats thought they would catch the Jets out of position by not changing personnel but no need to get cute when you are moving the ball well. The outside throw to Hernandez was the same pass that got a PI call earlier in the drive. Refs aren't going to throw the flag twice on the same drive on the same play...and the DB got a preview of the route a few plays earlier.

#9 - Great drive that almost ended the game in regulation

Can someone tell me where the Jets frustrated the Pats offense? The Pats wounds were mostly self-inflicted. Looking at individual plays across multiple drives or focusing in on drives when the down/distance have already gone south doesn't make much sense.

This was very much like the Seattle game last week and the Arizona/Denver games earlier. The Pats are not taking advantage of the opportunities in front of them. Hard to see that as a fatal flaw unless just don't improve their efficiency as the year progresses. Based on history, I'm not worried as long as the health situation stays reasonable.

Quick aside...does any team get less focus on player injuries than that Pats? Both starting safeties are out and people seem to think that doesn't affect their ability to defend downfield. 40% of the starting OL is out and yet the efficiency of the offense is supposed to still be at an elite level. Both TEs in a TE-dominated offense are hurting but they still should blow out every opponent they face. Not making excuses...I think they should be able to play better than they are showing. But I do understand that a team built on efficiency and game-planning is affected more by injuries early in the year than most teams.

Thanks for putting all the drives together like that. I think that anytime the Pats are unable to score points rapid fire the media will claim they were frustrated. To be fair it usually looks like they are. I'm sure yesterdays game was frustrating to a point, but they stuck with the run, didn't make any major mistakes, and moved the ball almost every possession. These little things are some of keys to winning tight games that are often absent from our offense when it gets slowed down.

People usually focus way too much on points with the offense and turn a blind eye to everything else. I'd personally take the offense we saw yesterday over some of the meltdowns we've seen over the years. The safety, drops, INT, etc are all products of forcing them to move the ball long distances on almost every drive. It's as much luck as it is playing the odds no matter what people want to think.

 

[sly24]

Re: Mangini:How the jets stalled the pats offense

I think this is funny. Out of 10 drives, 4 went for scores, 3 were stopped by penalties or easy drops and 3 were legit stops. Congrats Jets, you have had 3 legit stops out of 10 drives. No you haven't figured out this offense.

Drive 1: Easy catch dropped by Lloyd leads to a punt
Drive 2: TD to Gronk
Drive 3: Holding penalty (10 yards) then another drop by Lloyd leaves 3r and 20. Then a punt.
Drive 4: Brady sack leads to punt
Drive 5: Drop by Gronk leads to a punt that would ultimately keep the drive alive on a facemask call against the jets. The Pats are then stopped and punted.
Drive 6: TD to Gronk
Drive 7: Punt on a 3rd and 11 screen to Woodhead
Drive 8: OPI on Lloyd stalls the drive
Drive 9: FG ties the game
Drive 10: FG in OT

Patriots had 381 total yards yesterday, making this the 16th consecutive game with 350+ total yards, tying NFL record (1999-2000 Rams). There is nothing wrong with this offense.

 

[Metaphors]

Re: Mangini:How the jets stalled the pats offense

People usually focus way too much on points with the offense and turn a blind eye to everything else. I'd personally take the offense we saw yesterday over some of the meltdowns we've seen over the years. The safety, drops, INT, etc are all products of forcing them to move the ball long distances on almost every drive. It's as much luck as it is playing the odds no matter what people want to think.

You make a good point. Playing a mistake-free game consistently is overlooked. I haven't looked it up, but I doubt the Pats lose many games when their offense/STs are "clean" (all drives end in punt/points, no long returns/misses/blocks in kicking game). The Ravens game is the only game I can remember recently where the Pats lost a "clean" game (though the penalties didn't make it feel that way).

Brady had a 114 passer rating on all non-Lloyd throws. I'm not blaming that solely on Lloyd though. His routes are almost exclusively outside the numbers and/or 20+ yards downfield. Once a DB gets a feel for these routes and is able to use the sideline as an additional defender on most of them, Lloyd becomes less effective. Look for him to start mixing it up when Gronk/Hernandez get healthy and are better able to attack downfield. When Lloyd runs drag routes or skinny posts, he gets plenty of separation...so I'm not inclined to put him in the bust category just yet.

 

[Steve1iron]

So we constantly hear about the blueprint for stopping the Patriots. Jam the receivers and clog the middle of the field. Has anyone on the Patriots thought of this and come up with a solution. The definition of stupidity is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Does anyone give thought to what the other team will do and come up with a counter to it.

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: Mangini:How the jets stalled the pats offense

I think this is funny. Out of 10 drives, 4 went for scores, 3 were stopped by penalties or easy drops and 3 were legit stops. Congrats Jets, you have had 3 legit stops out of 10 drives. No you haven't figured out this offense.

Drive 1: Easy catch dropped by Lloyd leads to a punt
Drive 2: TD to Gronk
Drive 3: Holding penalty (10 yards) then another drop by Lloyd leaves 3r and 20. Then a punt.
Drive 4: Brady sack leads to punt
Drive 5: Drop by Gronk leads to a punt that would ultimately keep the drive alive on a facemask call against the jets. The Pats are then stopped and punted.
Drive 6: TD to Gronk
Drive 7: Punt on a 3rd and 11 screen to Woodhead
Drive 8: OPI on Lloyd stalls the drive
Drive 9: FG ties the game
Drive 10: FG in OT

Patriots had 381 total yards yesterday, making this the 16th consecutive game with 350+ total yards, tying NFL record (1999-2000 Rams). There is nothing wrong with this offense.

These drives would really highlight the execution issues that many of us have been talking about as the ultimate bane of the offense.

 

[Deus Irae]

From 2010-2012, the Patriots have played 43 games.

2010
Opp - Pts - Yds
Cin - 38 - 376
NYJ - 14 - 291 (L)
Buf - 38 - 445
Mia - 41 - 265
Bal - 23 - 394
SD - 23 - 179
Min - 28 - 362
Cle - 14 - 283 (L)
Pit - 39 - 453
Ind - 31 - 346
Det - 45 - 447
NYJ - 45 - 405
Chi - 36 - 475
GB - 31 - 249
Buf - 34 - 348
Mia - 38 - 502
NYJ (P) - 21 - 372 (L)

2011
Mia - 38 - 622
SD - 35 - 504
Buf - 31 - 495 (L)
Oak - 31 - 409
NYJ - 30 - 446
Dal - 20 - 371
Pit - 17 - 213 (L)
NYG - 20 - 438 (L)
NYJ - 37 - 389
KC - 34 - 380
Phi - 38 - 457
Ind - 31 - 362
Was - 34 - 431
Den - 41 - 451
Mia - 27 - 400
Buf - 49 - 480
Den (P) - 45 - 509
Bal (P) - 23 - 330
NYG (P) - 17 - 349 (L)

2012
Ten - 34 - 390
Ari - 18 - 387 (L)
Bal - 30 - 396 (L)
Buf - 52 - 580
Den - 31 - 444
Sea - 23 - 475 (L)
NYJ - 29 - 381

So in their 43 games, they've been held to fewer than 20 points just 5 times, never below 14. They've been held to fewer than 24 points just 12 times. They've been held to fewer than 300 total yards just 6 times.

Average loss: 20.5 ppg, 369.9 ypg

So yes, they've been held "in check" a handful of times over the past 3 seasons, but it shows you just how incredible this offense is, that to be held "in check" really means holding NE to the low 20's in points, and about 350 yards of total offense.

Nobody actually shuts this team down though. The best that opposing defenses can usually hope for is to keep the Pats' offense in check.

I'm not seeing your point here, unless it's to reinforce what I posted. If you take away the Jaguars and stick to only NFL quality offenses, you find that 17 ppg is the lowest being averaged this year. Last year, only the 5 worst defenses in the league scored below 17ppg as an average. It was 2 teams in 2010, and one of them was at 16.9. The Patriots have averaged 31,34 and 32 ppg in that time.


Holding a team that normally scores 31+ to something under 21 points is holding them to more than a touchdown and field goal less than normal, and to something more along the lines of the league average. I'd say that's keeping them in check.

 

[Deus Irae]

So we constantly hear about the blueprint for stopping the Patriots. Jam the receivers and clog the middle of the field. Has anyone on the Patriots thought of this and come up with a solution. The definition of stupidity is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Does anyone give thought to what the other team will do and come up with a counter to it.

They've signed Brandon Lllllllllllllloyd and moved Hernandez outside on occasion. It's a work in progress. The hope here is that it will ramp up to speed in the upcoming weeks.

 

[BradyFTW!]

To date, Lloyd hasn't done what I expected he would do, which is stretch the field and command some safety help. No point in denying the obvious. He's much better than Branch, because he can beat man-to-man coverage fairly consistently, but he doesn't fundamentally change the way that defenses play the Patriots. We need a WR who does that, whether it ends up being Lloyd or someone else. Not as much as we need defensive backs who can cover, but it's a need nonetheless.

 

[ThatllMoveTheChains!!!]

Re: Mangini:How the jets stalled the pats offense

You make a good point. Playing a mistake-free game consistently is overlooked. I haven't looked it up, but I doubt the Pats lose many games when their offense/STs are "clean" (all drives end in punt/points, no long returns/misses/blocks in kicking game). The Ravens game is the only game I can remember recently where the Pats lost a "clean" game (though the penalties didn't make it feel that way).

Brady had a 114 passer rating on all non-Lloyd throws. I'm not blaming that solely on Lloyd though. His routes are almost exclusively outside the numbers and/or 20+ yards downfield. Once a DB gets a feel for these routes and is able to use the sideline as an additional defender on most of them, Lloyd becomes less effective. Look for him to start mixing it up when Gronk/Hernandez get healthy and are better able to attack downfield. When Lloyd runs drag routes or skinny posts, he gets plenty of separation...so I'm not inclined to put him in the bust category just yet.

I believe last years Pit game was the only other one. There was a safety, but it was right at the end of the game, and a missed 42 yd FG. If I recall it looked like the offense was completely unprepared for what the Steelers' D brought and didn't even gain 250 yds total.

 

[PatsFan2]

Mangini is not saying anything that my blind Grandmother doesn't know about our Patriots. I know he was going against our make shift secondary...but i sure wished we had taken a flier on Stephen Hill. He is going to wreak havok in our Secondary for years to come. Lloyd is a complimenatry WR at best he gets NO separation. Can you really go to a guy like that on 3rd downs? We should have overpayed for Vjack 216 yards yesterday i think. Brady cannot overthrow him.:snob:

 

[PatsFan2]

They've signed Brandon Lllllllllllllloyd and moved Hernandez outside on occasion. It's a work in progress. The hope here is that it will ramp up to speed in the upcoming weeks.

The Hernandez outside could work in the EZ but it's a lost cause in the middle of the field. Seriously a TE on a CB on the outsides match-up goes to CB. Herandez is not Marquis Colston outside the numbers.

 

[Marqui]

To date, Lloyd hasn't done what I expected he would do, which is stretch the field and command some safety help. No point in denying the obvious. He's much better than Branch, because he can beat man-to-man coverage fairly consistently, but he doesn't fundamentally change the way that defenses play the Patriots. We need a WR who does that, whether it ends up being Lloyd or someone else. Not as much as we need defensive backs who can cover, but it's a need nonetheless.

Lloyd lead the league in big catches (25+ yards) the last 2 years before he got here. Now he never catches those passes. Starting to wonder if it's not Lloyd but just the fact that Brady and McDaniels can't/don't want to run a deep play offense.

Also keep in mind that their offense is #1 in the league, so let's not act like it's horribly flawed.

 

[PatsFan2]

Lloyd lead the league in big catches (25+ yards) the last 2 years before he got here. Now he never catches those passes. Starting to wonder if it's not Lloyd but just the fact that Brady and McDaniels can't/don't want to run a deep play offense.

Also keep in mind that their offense is #1 in the league, so let's not act like it's horribly flawed.

Don't know how that possible when he only had one great year.

Brandon Lloyd Stats - New England Patriots - ESPN

 

[Patriot Missile]

Lloyd lead the league in big catches (25+ yards) the last 2 years before he got here. Now he never catches those passes. Starting to wonder if it's not Lloyd but just the fact that Brady and McDaniels can't/don't want to run a deep play offense.

Also keep in mind that their offense is #1 in the league, so let's not act like it's horribly flawed.

Brady throws the best short to intermediate ball bar none. Anything under 35 yards he is my guy. I just don't think he has the deep ball touch of an Eli Manning or even a RG3. Then again he doesn't have a Randy Moss anymore either.

I just find it funny how Kyle Orton could utilize Lloyd but Brady can't. Did Kyle throw a better deep ball? I don't see the separation from Lloyd this year either though.

 

[bostonia3333]

I read all these Lloyd sucks posts, so typical of the fan base here. Seven games into the season the guy is a bum, hes not the answer etc. Every year its the same story, how about we give him more than those seven games for him and brady to click. He had a bad game yesterday, he dropped passes hes caught in the past. While i wasn't all that impressed with the teams play yesterday, I do realize that the Ryan brothers almost Always come up with a defense that stiffles the pats, the offensive line is a patchwork of starters in new positions and jags, its a new offense to most of the players and it takes time to get acclimated to it, both Gronk and AH are still hurt, the management can't seem to decided between Welker or Edelman, which is ridiculous....its Welker.

Well it shouldn't take a "star" WR 7 games to catch one TD with all the talent that surrounds him. That TD against Buf was in garbage time too. Plus Lloyd shouldn't be diving like that either in a blowout, thats how you end up on the IR or PUP. The chemistry between Brady and Moss in 07 was instant---the first series of that first game of the season against the Jets, Moss was torching the Jets for 17 yd-20 yd gains in the middle of the field. Brady and Moss dropped 44 on a good Jets defense. The next game against San Diego, Moss destroyed the Chargers on Sunday night. Brady is a video game qb and will get you the ball, you need to be perfect with your routes if you can't get that magical nanoinch of separation. I know Lloyd is a far cry from Moss, but he does have the benefit of playing with the best qb in the history of the game, and he has the benefit of playing around elite TEs and good RBs---that should be enough ammo to pad your stats and stay on your feet and accumulate YAC--unfortunately Lloyd has been garbage.