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Equal Pay for Equal Work

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatriotsReign, Jul 21, 2014.

  1. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    You are confusing conceptual difficulty with amount of effort required. The amount of homework, labs, projects, etc. required in engineering school is significant. In addition to the material being conceptually difficult, that sheer workload causes some people to seek out majors that will allow them to have some actual free time. As far as comparisons with language goes, memorization is not conceputally hard.

    I haven't decided it. It's an empirical fact.

    I don't think that was the order. I think it was an attempt to identify other factors that would explain why there are differences in pay.

    Ok, if your argument is that the market values the wrong things then that really hurts the argument that pay differences are due to misogyny.

    There aren't short cuts around having to hand in homework every class, or having to complete labs and lab reports. I know that all of us in the Engineering school had considerably more work to do than our non-Engineering peers. Maybe the pre-Meds came close.

    I am not sure there is a lot of correlation between undergrad grades and/or school reputation and where the engineering graduates winds up. Those soft skills you are alluding to above might take a student who struggled in Strengths of Materials to the top of the management ladder.

    Again, this argument that differences in how the marketplace values particular skills are misguided does not dovetail with the assertion that the differences are due to misogyny.
     
  2. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    So that makes it effectively a five year degree. Not sure how that makes it the same as a degree that can be obtained in four years.
     
  3. PatriotsReign

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    No, I agree with your point that the credit requirement makes it more challenging. I just wonder from a degree of course/class difficulty, which majors are the hardest.

    Are you a UMass Amherst alumn? I graduated from there in '82
     
  4. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Yup, 1991!
     
  5. PatriotsReign

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    Then you're a whipper-snapper! I lived in Gorman then Brandywine apartments.

    I really enjoyed my time there.
     
  6. The Brandon Five

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    I lived in Cashin and then I also moved to Brandywine and eventually to a house in Sunderland. Small world.
     
  7. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    There's a lot of talk about this is harder, that is harder......I would think that most people chose to major in whatever thing it that they are good at...which would make it easier. I doubt someone who's fascinated by numbers, good at math and interested in the mechanics of things would be seeking a degree in literature or comparative religions. Ditto the person who loves to read, who is fascinated by words and who loves art is not going to be applying to engineering schools.

    I have no doubt that 13 is a great engineer.....I also know that he sucks at writing and expressing himself. Just as I know I can write a mean paragraph but have trouble adding 2 + 2. It would be near impossible for me to get an engineering degree - and I think it would be equally tough for 13 to get a degree in a liberal arts college. It doesn't have much to do with what's harder - it has everything to do with where your brain and your interests skew to. It's not that the subjects are hard in general - it's that they're hard specifically to individuals.

    But - for some reason - it seems that those who take the engineering route tend to belittle those who chose the other paths far more than the opposite applies.

    Perhaps there's something in their personalities which makes them have to act like they are better than others for some unknown reason?
     
  8. Harry Boy

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    I mastered in dimly lit c0cktail lounges with Chinese Food and Beer for breakfast.
     
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  9. The Brandon Five

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    For the umpteenth time: the difference in difficulty I am talking about is the sheer amount of work, not the difficulty of grasping material conceptually. You do realize that engineers are required to take General Education classes including ones that involve writing, right?

    I don't care who you are, that's funny right there.
     
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  10. Patters

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    This is getting unwieldy, but in my view it's an interesting the conversation that has to do with the crux of the issue of equality.

    First of all, great mathematician philosophers like Wittgenstein appreciated the complexity of language. It's not just memorization. Much more goes into it than that. Grammatical structure is more than memorization as any 3 yer old proves. Idioms, metaphors, dialects, slang, and so on all point to the complexity of language. While there re theories on how children learn language, it appears that adults, with their brain largely settled, learn it in a different, more difficult way.

    It depends on the college or university and the program. The fact that engineering is boring, apparently, contributes to the high drop out rate. Working with kids is a lot less boring.

    http://blogs.ptc.com/2012/08/06/high-dropout-rates-prompt-engineering-schools-to-change-approach/

    A virtual industry has cropped up to figure out why students quit, but most of the many studies on this topic come to one incontrovertible conclusion: They’re bored.

    “A primary reason for the attrition of students from engineering is their perception of a learning environment that fails to motivate them and is unwelcoming,” reported the President’s Council on Jobs and Competitiveness. More would likely stick around, the ASEE agrees, if engineering programs were “perceived by students to be personally rewarding, socially relevant, and designed to help them succeed.”

    Well, first, comparison of men and women's salaries are only valid if for similar jobs, education, experience, etc. But, the fact that people discount many of the professions that women go into (as being easy) also contributes to bias. If you were hiring someone, it sounds like you would say, "Wow, you have an engineering degree" to one person and think, "Bleh, she only has a childhood education degree." So, at some age you were inculcated to believe that the sciences are more worthy in some respect than the liberal arts. All I'm saying is that a good student is a good student, and rises to and finds the challenges.

    No, again, we're trying to compare compensation for male engineers vs. female engineers, male teachers vs. female, and women generally show up earning less. Our society doesn't penalize National Guardsmen or other soldiers for their service, but women who raise kids are penalized. I think that's a product of a male centric culture (and I don't deny that ours is easily one of the more progressive ones even today, but still has a ways to go).

    It may be more work, but it's not harder. I'm not saying it's easier, either. It's just different. Years ago, I was having argument with a friend about the Supreme Court ruling that protected the right of private clubs to discriminate based on race. He didn't believe, so on a Sunday evening we went to a law school library, and it was packed with students studying. So, I really do understand what you're talking about. To be a good engineering student requires excellent study habits. In the liberal arts, you can get away with more. But, the good student isn't getting away with anything. Whether they are studying pre-school education or chemical engineering, they are applying themselves in some fashion. I will say this, asking an English major to read a book or asking a pre-school education major to research the validity of educational toys is probably a lot more fun than a lot of engineering.

    Unless I'm misreading what you wrote, we agree. But the soft skills tend to be held in lower regard especially by men. The best engineering professor is rarely the best engineer. It's the person who knows his subject and is a skilled teacher. The soft and hard skills are equally important, but the one associated more with women than with men is for some reason often devalued.

    I think it's only useful to compare men and women with similar resumes, but also to ask why society values child rearing less than military service and devalues college programs that are more likely to attract women. Obviously, based on what some conservatives have shared in this thread, women to some are worth less as employees than men because of what men have been conditioned to think is important.[/QUOTE]
     
  11. IllegalContact

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  12. Patters

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    Engineering students apparently study more than other students. That may reflect on the abilities of the typical engineering student and the way they are recruited by schools. That said, my point is that the good student is independent of his or her major. The good student has a real interest and aptitude for the subject, so the measure should be on the student, not the curriculum. A good child education student will work just as hard as a good engineering student.
     
  13. Charlotte Pats Fan

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    1980 here, lived in Brown freshman year, Fraternity for the next two and a house on East Street my Senior year.
     
  14. PatsWSB47

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    I heard you wanted to be lawyer but couldn't get past the bar
     
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    Simply not true......any student would have to work harder in engineering than any other undergraduate program
     
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  16. Snake Eyes

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    Did you actually do the work that the engineers did? Also, suppose the average person could have done 75% ( and that's being generous) of what the engineers did, it's the high level stuff that the regular person can't do which gives them their value. Also, just because someone has an English degree doesn't mean they can write a good story, and if you can write really well you can make big money...because most people can't do that.
     
  17. patsfan13

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    Well, this is old data but it struck me as funny back in the day. At the University of Utah they published an article in the school newspaper about GPA vs ACT scores for various schools. The Physics, Chem, Engineering math students had an avg ACT score in the 33 range, the avs GPA was a 2.1, in the Education dept the avg score for the ACT was 20 and the avg GPA was 3.8.

    Yeah the difficulty of the classes was very different. A Gender Studies course is a lot easier that a Partial Differential Equations class.

    I seems btw that we need to investigate why Asian students are discriminating against whites in engineering and sciences in American Universities. :D
     
  18. The Brandon Five

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    So now you are trying to say that engineering students are dumber? Cute. See PF13's post. You have no idea of what you are talking about.

    Just admit you are wrong and give up this ridiculous argument.
     
  19. Patters

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    No, I'm saying there are many possibilities. One link I provided cited boredom as a primary reason people leave engineering studies. But, if very large numbers are failing, then that reflects on the recruitment policies, doesn't it? Why are engineering programs recruiting so many people who do badly? That said, I don't know how people fare in other programs. If 30% of education students and 40% of engineering students drop out or change, it's probably within the statistical margin of error. To be good at any subject requires hard work. The work is different for engineering students than education students, but I would bet that an engineering student is no more likely to ace an education program than an education student will ace an engineering program. Different ways of thinking -- one is not superior to the other.
     
  20. Charlotte Pats Fan

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    I'll take that bet.
     
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