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Equal Pay for Equal Work

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatriotsReign, Jul 21, 2014.

  1. Bobsyouruncle

    Bobsyouruncle 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    It's unclear to me how this is evidence of a patriarchy. Women are able to choose to work less yet still enjoy the financial benefits of the men working. This sounds like a matriarchy.

    There is virtually no stigma when a mother chooses to work, but a father who doesn't is called a dead-beat. It certainly doesn't feel like a privilege to know that my families entire financial future means I must work until I'm 65. I don't work because it's so much fun.
     
  2. Snake Eyes

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    Women ARE less likely to go for the difficult STEM degrees, sorry but that's the truth and the numbers confirm it.

    Also, please don't attribute the "weaker sex" quote, and don't imply that I said I'd pay someone different based on their sex, I said no such thing so stop trying to put words in my mouth.
     
  3. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The issues are about women who choose to pursue their careers and about the way our society encourages men vs. women in their career pursuits. Men seem to have many advantages. The issue of men being able to stay at home or work part-time while raising kids is an absolutely valid one.

    As a related aside: You may know Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers. Astaire is considered perhaps the greatest Hollywood dancer, and Rogers was his dancing partner. She observed, ""Sure he was great, but don't forget I had to do everything he did, ...backwards and in high heels!"
     
  4. SB39

    SB39 In the Starting Line-Up

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    Poor analogy comparing someone who risks their life to defend America's freedoms to a woman who chooses to reduce her workload for whatever personal reason.

    Also, I don't consider any of this as "punishment" just simple business reality. I already mentioned an example of a guy who works 50 hours a week for 10 years versus a woman who started at 50 hours a week 10 years ago, took 9 months off, then came back to work but asked to be reduced to 35 hours a week. Which of those people do you think I am going to promote?
     
  5. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No, you are the one who said that women go for easy degrees, but that's your own bias. Maybe you find STEM field really hard and pre-school education for instance, really easy, or maybe you don't really know, but in your male-centric world, it sounds to me like you're saying anyone could be a pre-school teacher, but to be an engineer you have to be special. So, as I said, it sounds like you would reward the person with the STEM degree (typically a man) better than the person with an education degree (typically a woman).
     
  6. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I was talking specifically about women who raise kids. The women who work part-time because they want to are not part of this discussion.

    I'd promote the one who was better at the job, and if the woman, because she took time off to raise her child, has better values, more patience, more creativity, and other skills that parenting often provides, I would factor that into my decision making. The promotion might require more hours, and I would discuss that with both candidates, and see what could be worked out.
     
  7. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    There's no bias to be had, one can simply look at the numbers of people who initially go for an engineering degree and 1) fail out, or 2) transfer to something else. Then do the same with education majors. An education degree IS easier than an engineering degree, as evidenced by the fact that far fewer people can pull off the former.

    I wouldn't reward the person with the STEM degree over a person without a degree at all, my only concern is whether they could do the job I'm hiring them for, and I'd pay the market rate. Fortunately for STEM people they're going to apply for jobs where that kind of education is necessary, and will therefore pay more.
     
  8. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't think engineering is particularly difficult at least at the undergraduate level. It's more or less as difficult as learning a language, which requires excellent study habits. I have no idea if more engineering students than other students give up or change majors, but maybe that says more about those individuals than engineering? Why does engineering tend to attract people who do not succeed? Maybe they're motivated by the money in engineering, but not really the subject matter? Maybe engineering schools are not as good as other schools at weeding out people who aren't cut out for the subject? Engineering does attract a lot of odd characters, so maybe there's some other problem at play? Don't get me wrong, if you're an engineering student at MIT, I'm sure it's extremely difficult, as difficult as if you're an English major at Harvard, for instance.

    Years ago, my aunt had friends, husband and wife, who were moving out their apartment. I was there when the husband, an engineer, was figuring out how to load the truck so everything would fit (drawing diagrams and making calculations), while his wife carried down most of the stuff. I guess he was pretty smart!
     
  9. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Engineering requires a high degree of math smarts. As far as it being as difficult as English, how would you know? Language requires memorization, you can't get by as an engineer by memorizing things, you have to be able to think and apply, as well as memorize. It's vastly more difficult.
     
  10. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    The fact is, pre-school degrees are much, much easier than engineering degrees both for men AND women.

    Pay is determined by the number of qualified candidates available, not by some social justice/value scale Patters. That is why teachers make much less than engineers.

    We don't want people to be paid based on the value they offer to society. We want it to be based on the level of difficulty. And gov't jobs are separate from private sector jobs.
     
  11. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact Pro Bowl Player

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    this whole bunch has a ton of time on their hands......

    you should probably look into the demographics of this group

    http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/women-ceos-fortune-1000

     
  12. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    A Bachelors degree in Engineering at UMass required 145 credits. A typical Bachelors degree in English or Sociology requires 120. Engineering is vastly more difficult and requires significantly more work. At graduation the rest of the school applauded when the School of Engineering was announced because they had witnessed the truckload of work we had all done.

    Why do people fail out/transfer out of Engineering programs? Because the initial classes are pretty tough. When I was in the program I remember they were begging for more women to enroll. There were scholarships offered.

    Not having completed such a degree yourself, I have no idea why you feel qualified to comment on it. I understand your need to do so to defend your political position, but it is not a position based on facts.
     
  13. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    Ok...done. (List from 2010)


    Name and Fortune 500 company:Year became CEONumber of children
    Marion Sandler, Golden West Financial b-1963 2
    Jill Barad, Mattel 1997 2
    Meg Whitman, eBay 1998 2
    Carleton Fiorina, Hewlett-Packard 1999 a-2
    Andrea Jung, Avon Products 1999 a-2
    Anne Mulcahy, Xerox 2001 2
    Patricia Russo, Lucent Technologies 2002 2
    Mary Sammons, Rite Aid 2003 2
    Susan Ivey, Reynolds American2004 a-5
    Brenda Barnes, Sara Lee 2005 3
    Paula R. Reynolds, Safeco Insurance 2006 1
    Patricia Woertz, Archer-Daniels-Midland 2006 3
    Indra Nooyi, PepsiCo 2006 2
    Irene Rosenfeld, Kraft 2006 2
    Carol Meyrowitz, TJX 2007 2
    Angela Braly, Wellpoint 2007 3
    Laura J. Sen, BJ's Wholesale Club 2009 2
    Ellen Kullman, DuPont 2009 3
    Carol Bartz, Yahoo 2009 3
    Ursula Burns, Xerox 2009 a-2


    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/pf_article_111055.html
     
  14. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact Pro Bowl Player

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    you don't know what you are talking about......engineering is the most difficult coursework there is at the undergraduate level and its not even close

     
  15. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact Pro Bowl Player

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    interesting stuff.......it is an old article, but the good news is that the number has more than doubled since, so you can say there's progress

    but I guess my previous point does not hold merit.....I wonder if the numbers are the same at the next level (VP's and GM's)


     
  16. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    Considering that 81% of all women aged 40-44 in the USA have given birth, I think it's safe to assume that the great majority of working women, successful or otherwise, have children.

    http://www.infoplease.com/spot/womencensus1.html

    And, interestingly enough, while remining childless is inceasing in most areas - it it DECREASING in women with advanced degrees.

    Read more: http://www.yourtango.com/201087202/women-without-kids-80-percent-30-years-ago#ixzz38UFBCNDL
     
  17. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    I think there are some even more difficult. Maybe a pure mathematics, physics or biology major? But it's close. They all take many of the same courses except the biology majors.
     
  18. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #75 Jersey

    The hard sciences may well be more difficult conceptually, but the workload does not compare. The additional 25 credits amount to almost another full year based on a typical 15 credit load.
     
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  19. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There is so much to respond to:

    I have worked with many engineers (including some who invented one of the major protocols on the internet). I also project led an engineering project that led to a patent. I developed and presented the initial proposal, designed the project team, and flew out to CA to run the show more times than I can remember. It was hard work, but no harder than some other projects I've done that has nothing to do with engineering. Writing a good short story (and I got one published) is just as hard, if not harder. Remember I worked in technology for 20 years, so I have a good understanding of the field. As in any profession, there are various skill levels. Also, by the way, language requires a lot more than memorization.

    This is what I'm talking about. You decide that engineering degrees are harder to obtain than pre-school degrees, point out that men are more likely to go for harder degrees, and use that to help explain why women earn less than men. Which does not explain why women earn less even with those degrees.

    But, how do you compare Shakespeare to Einstein? How do you compare the person who has positively affected the lives of hundreds of preschoolers to the person who has built a tunnel? PR says you use supply and demand, but supply and demand is an economic concept, not a judgment. It doesn't have anything to do with knowledge, skill level, or usefulness, except when comparing apples to apples. You can't use supply and demand to compare a pre-school teacher to an engineer. If you've ever worked with engineers, I am sure you know that many of them could never work for a room full of little kids.

    Further, engineers tend to work in a business model, creating or improving products, while teachers tend to work in a nonprofit environment. The two occupations are difficult to compare from an economic view as a result.

    Looking online the number of credits seems to vary for engineering, but I can't say I've done a detailed analysis. Engineering may require more work, but construction probably requires even more work. In my own academic career, I've studied such things as statistics and how the brain functions, which are more science than art, of course. Those were difficult courses, but no more difficult than understanding the multiple theories of how historians study history (historiography), how PTSD manifests itelf and is best treated, the different developmental stages that kids go through, and so on.

    My view is that a hard working person works just as hard for any degree, while a person who wants short cuts finds ways to simplify their tasks. Many people with engineering degrees become network administrators, computer programs, and other jobs that don't call on all their engineering skills, probably because they don't have the more advanced skills.

    I will concede this, however. It's easier to get a low-level job that requires a pre-school degree (such as a nanny, which can pay very well), a daycare employee, etc. than it is to get a truly low-level job with an engineering degree. I'm not sure where C students from mediocre engineering schools end up.

    Our male centric society values hard science more than the liberal arts, but the skill and knowledge to be an expert in literary criticism, for instance, is just as demanding, if not more demanding, than the skill level to be an engineer. It's different kinds of intelligence at play. Some people take to one skill better than others, but just because they do, doesn't mean they haven't worked as hard.
     
  20. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    Except there is no rule that says one has to complete their degree in 4 years...
     

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