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End of the "cheating" debate -- from the horse's mouth

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by GoWhalers, Feb 21, 2008.

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  1. GoWhalers

    GoWhalers Rookie

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    From Tomase's blog (please, no rocks or rotten tomatos!):

    http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/sports/patriots/

    That takes the cake. As far as I'm concerned this quote backs Belichick's story 100%. The violation of the rule was the use of a camera versus the use of a pen and pencil. Another NFL team could have reams and reams of other teams defensive calls written down, and they are no less "cheaters" than the Patriots.
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2008
  2. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Exactly, Belichick just used a more efficient, time effective way to do what everyone else does.
  3. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ---- JAG ----- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    your analogy does not work ... common knowledge really.
  4. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    another spygate thread
  5. WTE

    WTE Rookie

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    Thanks Mrs. ButtersWorth.
  6. Keegs

    Keegs Rookie

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    This is a misleading thread title.

    There is no mention of Shannon Sharpe anywhere in this thread.

    MODS!:mad:
  7. nittanylions52

    nittanylions52 Banned

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    Haha, that's why it's against the rules.
  8. TN Patriot

    TN Patriot Rookie

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    You mean got caught, Fisher never gives a straight answer on anything, including his own team.
  9. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    thanks..... but that's the Baker of Bigglesworth to you.
  10. WTE

    WTE Rookie

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    Your name is now Mrs. ButtersWorth.
  11. Patsmaniac

    Patsmaniac Rookie

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    I heard Coach Fisher has a hidden camera under that stupid moustach he has..I hope the league looks into this.
  12. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Rookie

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    And another stupid pointless worthless annoying post from a stupid pathetic person with too much time on his hands.

    Seriously--your little act is way old, find new material.
  13. Afterlifemobile-86

    Afterlifemobile-86 Rookie

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    Who cares what some bitter Superbowl losing grade A Dbag says about us. The guy is a straight up liar in my opinion when he says "no other team does it" the overall vibe from this whole "scandal" is a lot of teams do. Maybe the NFL should look into allegations that Fisher orders on field hits (Merriman). Not to mention two seasons ago in our finale against them, i lost count how many times Titan defenders took dives at Brady's knees. Classy guy.
  14. fair catch fryar

    fair catch fryar Rookie

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    Heck.
    Let's just settle this right now and make a rule that bans Bill Belichick from coaching in the NFL so it's fair for everyone else that can't think outside of the box and has to coach within very finite parameters.
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2008
  15. upstater1

    upstater1 Rookie

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    But Jeff Fisher is a liar. Read that quote again. The guy is a liar.
  16. upstater1

    upstater1 Rookie

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    Here are some teams that tape signals:

    Jets (admitted this year)
    Broncos (were caught filming another team's practice several years ago)
    Dolphins (admitted stealing signals off a tape)
    Colts (Howard Mudd does it, according to Jimmy Johnson)

    In the past, we know Ron Jaworski and the Eagles did it, Jimmy Johnson and the Cowboys/Dolphins, Al Davis and the Raiders, and I'm sure a great many others.

    Fisher's claim makes him a fool and a liar.
  17. Sean Pa Patriot

    Sean Pa Patriot Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    Again the perception will always be with us, just get what Walsh has or does not have , and lets for the love of god move on..
  18. PatsFanInVa

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    I agree that the silly triumphalist tone of the original thread title makes zero sense.

    All Fisher did was repeat what's being said league-wide. He's emphasizing that there are teams that do not use the video cameras, and that is the other side of the discussion.

    His point is that he believes only NE has done it (uh wrong), but even if there are 10 teams that do it, then 22 "honest" teams "playing within the rules" suffer from it.

    Enough about Fisher.

    My thing is, I just don't get this "end of the cheating debate" interpretation. He's actually trying to fuel the fire of the "cheating debate."

    So yeah, this is kind of another purposeless spygate thread. And Bigglesworth has always reminded me of Buttersworth, but that's beside the point, he's right about this.

    PFnV
  19. cubedoggy

    cubedoggy Rookie

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    ...and don't forget Bobby Wade taking out Rodney's knee...
  20. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I used to really like Fisher, but lately he has turned into another media whore.. if you can't win the big game, blab what you want on ESPN.. more face time.
  21. BPF

    BPF Rookie

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    I think the point he is trying to make by saying end of the "cheating" debate is that stealing defensive signals shouldn't be considered "cheating," as Fisher says "There’s not a bylaw against sitting up in a press box and taking notes with a binoculars as fast as you can."

    As we all know the Patriots have been criticized in the mainstream media and labeled as "cheaters" because they stole defensive signals not because of the manner in which they did it. When Marcellus Wiley, Mark Schreleth, John Clayton, Steve Young, Sen Specter, etc get on TV and say it's a big advantage to know your opponenets defensive signals and how this is shocking and something they never heard of they are flat out lying. As Fisher mentioned above, it's ok to steal your opponenets defensive signals in any manner other than videotaping, "....there is a bylaw as far as videotaping signals and that is the issue." So the Patriots violated a competitive rule and were punished for it. This is closer to a holding penalty then it is an issue that should be investigated by senators. Just like offensive linemen are allowed to use their hands as long as they keep them to the inside of a defenders body, the Patriots are allowed to "steal" defensive signals. But when the OL's hands get to the outside of the defender's body, it's a no-no, just like it is for the Pats to have used the videotape. What he is trying to say is that this story should be over and done with, yet it's become a national issue and debate.
  22. PatsFanInVa

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    I don't get the bizarre definitional debate about the word "cheating."

    Fisher's point is valid. There is a bylaw against taping signals. The Pats did break it, whether or not you believe the "interpretation" argument. Fisher's point is that, even if many teams did break it, many did not.

    He acknowledges that you can scribble notes from the stands, but you can not use a video camera.

    The fact of intelligence-gathering does not make it cheating. The fact that you break the bylaw, which specifies which intelligence-gathering is acceptable, is cheating.

    Your logic is similar to saying "Roger Clemens wasn't cheating. I know for a fact that Curt Shilling takes vitamins. It's the same thing, both raise your chances of better physical performance. It's just that one is against the rules and one isn't."

    PFnV
  23. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    1.) If you believe the interpretation argument, the Patriots did not cheat.

    2.) The analogy is not steroids to vitamins. A proper analogy would be to note that taking steroids orally was legal, but injecting them was deemed to be against the rules.
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2008
  24. NYCPatsFan

    NYCPatsFan Rookie

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    I think the OP forgot to add the sarcasm in the title.

    Based on the title, I was tempted to click on the link and break my resolution (boycott BH) but lucky I decided to read the postings first. Good that I did.
  25. mb6592

    mb6592 Rookie

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    Your logic is faulty. If I steal another teams playbook, that's cheating. If I use a typewriter to type a paper to finish it faster when the teacher told me to use a pen, that's stupid and against a rule - but is not cheating. Did the Pats gain a competitive advantage by taping versus jotting down notes? Or did they just save time and money (by not having to hire two guys to do it)? Does cheating occur everytime a rule is broken? Are rushers cheating when they run into a kicker?
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2008
  26. BPF

    BPF Rookie

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    I guess that's where we disagree, is it "cheating" in school if you had the answers to a test ahead of time?? Yes, does it matter how you got those answers?? No. If the NFL was really concerned about competitive balance and the integrity of the game with this rule, they simply would have a bylaw in place that states no "stealing/intercepting" of defensive/offensive signals, period.
  27. mb6592

    mb6592 Rookie

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    Exactly....
  28. PatsFanInVa

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    Okay, let's say that some steroids which are not also illegal, can be taken, with prescriptions, and only orally, not injected.

    Then your guy injects them.

    Fine.

    Now let's say your team has recourse to popping the pills, and does that, but in addition also just has to use injectables.

    The reason a rule is a rule and not a law of God or a biblical verse, is that the rule itself is the standard. You cheat if you break it.

    The nit I have with this holier-than-thou bullcrap coming from Fisher, is that he and Dungy colluded about the outcome of the final regular season game, and that at least three other teams have committed the same "sin" as the Patriots, regarding videotaping.

    He goes further and says he "believes" the Pats are the only ones, but that part isn't true. He also has just gotten away, pure and simple, with the cardinal sin of non-competitive football, i.e., having an "agreement" with an opposing coach about how the game will be played out.

    I've accepted that only half this story will be told, at least for a while. We might hear the second half in retrospect. These little sound-bites are just the sounds of teeth gritting around the league as they realize they have been directed to consider the Goodell handling of the matter "satisfactory."

    My problem isn't with people saying the Pats "cheat." It's with seeing other "cheating" happening throughout the season, but no enforcement happening, for whatever reason (and there's always a reason those situations are "no big deal.")

    Okay fine, they're still cheating. If it's the letter of the rule you're concerned with, clean it all up.

    PFnV
  29. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Bullcrap. If the prof says no typewriters, the rule is the same for everybody. If I hand-write my essay, and it's a 40-pager, and the pure stupidity of the rule distracts me and makes me stop short of that last rhetorical flourish that slams home my point and I get a B, and you type yours up easy-peasy, and get an A, then you can be argued to have been more successful because of a competitive disadvantage. That's why they're called rules. By all rights, the teacher should indicate a woulda-coulda-shoulda-grade on my paper, and knock off points for the typing. The teacher is even within his/her rights to just not accept the paper.

    I doubt the addition of the camera was "just" to save time and money. I think they preferred having images to notes only. I think if you think otherwise, you're looking through some serious rose-colored glasses.

    I also think that this year's games demonstrate clearly that we got nothing out of the practice even worth mentioning, and that BB's statement about how "important" those tapes were is pretty accurate. Again, I'll use the 2007 season as exhibit A in determining this.

    My real problem is that other teams have "unfair" outcomes or disadvantages based on other rules-breaches. These are also cheating. It's just that they're unimportant teams (like the Colts and the Titans this year.) Nobody is saying the Giants/Patriots super bowl could have been affected by the Browns playing instead of the Titans. So the collusion happened, is against the rules, is pretty much the quintessential form of cheating, if only in a very diluted way, and affected a team's chances (the Browns.) To me, that's cheating.

    I think the only reason Crennel didn't go forward with that charge is,

    1) didn't want to be perceived as turning the whole spygate thing into a circus and bring it up again, and

    2) the way the Browns were playing, it was like a blessing from above that they did not make the playoffs anyway (and everybody would have known it.)

    Like I said, I don't really believe in the definitional argument. I think you can just call it cheating and move on. But by the same token, it's the responsible thing to say a lot of cheating is going on, and has gone on. If you're the new sherrif in town and all that, clean up all the cheating, fixed games included, and taped games that the "victim" doesn't bring forward, because the club doesn't want to "squeal" also included.

    PFnV
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2008
  30. mb6592

    mb6592 Rookie

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    So you feel that "the rule itself is the standard. You cheat if you break it." So all rule breakers are cheaters. Others feel that some rule breakers are just that, committed a rule infraction, but not automatically cheaters.
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