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Egypt and Israel

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Holy Diver, Jan 31, 2011.

  1. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

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    #80 Jersey

    Now, I know one or two or five protesting guys on the streets is not a great cross-section of Egyptians, but watching CNN over the weekend, they aired some interesting views of the "revolution"

    All week we had been told the Egyptian people want "freedom", they want a government that is less corrupt, they want a dictator out.

    Missed in a lot of the translation, is the peace they have had with the neighboring country to the east, Israel.
    =========================================================
    Egyptian protester claims they will ‘destroy Israel’ | Raw Story

    "All the people hate [Mubarak]!" one protester shouted. "He's supporting Israel! Israel is our enemy. We don't like him... Israel and America supported him. We hate them all. We don't like them!"

    "How do you get the president out of the country?" Robertson asked.

    "By revolution," the protester replied.

    =========================================================
    This wasn't the only protester they showed who said things like this.

    Made me and my wife say "Uh Oh..." as soon as we heard it.
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2011
  2. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    I've seen a lot of the same lately. I'm not sure we're going to like what we see when the dust settles. You know all the fundamentalist regimes and organizations like Hezbollah, Hamas, AQ, the Iranian ayatollahs, etc. are all working to insert themselves into the coming power structure, or at least move to mold what the new government will be. Not good if you ask me.

    Another thing to consider, is what happens to the Suez Canal. If, and I'm simply specualting for the sake of discussion here, Eqypt moves toward a hardline, fundamentalist, Iran/AQ/Hamas type governent and restricts access to the Suez Canal, what would happen? Oil would likely spike in cost, and the fundamental government could then blackmail western economies to a degree, as well as gain revenues from the canal to use as funding for it's causes. Would the west allow that to happen? Hmm... Could you see a situation where a couple of years down the road some unfriendly radical government runs the Suez in such a way that the western nations get together and take the SC by force? Crazy I know, but it isn't completely improbabale is it? Well maybe.
  3. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

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    #80 Jersey

    RW,

    Agreed. I'm reading an interesting take on this over at global research:

    ===========================================================
    found this quote to be telling: The Middle East at a Strategic Crossroads: Threat to US Hegemony?

    "The U.S. posturing as neutral, “not taking sides,” could appease and mislead American public opinion, but to Arab and especially to Egyptian public opinion even neutrality is viewed as hostile and condemned in the region as a double standard when compared with the U.S. siding with similar moves for change elsewhere in the world, let alone that this neutrality contradicts the western highly valued democratic values at home."
    ===========================================================

    I think were being fed a BS sandwich here by our wussified media. But thats not exactly shocking either, is it?
  4. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #54 Jersey

    Egypt's peace with Israel has never been popular among the Egyptians. Part of it is the indoctrination of the Egyptian people under Nasser and the effect that it has had on Egyptian perceptions of Israel to this day. It is not unlike the average American's feelings for Russia, which are still shaped, to a large extent by the anti-Soviet propaganda of the 1950s and 1960s.

    Opinion polls in the Arab world about Israel are perhaps the most interesting, because Egypt tends to have among the least favorable views of Israel; even lower than Saudi Arabia and the Palestinians. I'm not home right now, but I can dig up some of that info when I get home.

    The abrogation of the Egypt-Israel peace treaty is a near certainty in the post-Mubarak world.
  5. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #54 Jersey

    The Muslim Brotherhood has been beating this drum for a long time, and it's definitely a troubling development we're seeing here. Egyptian Islamists have been dreaming of doing something like this since 1979. Though Sunni, they admired that revolution, and had no issue with the anti-American overtones.

    It took our media about three days to really pay this situation the attention it deserves. The "head in sand" approach has worked during previous unrest in Egypt (2004-2006), but this is different, and the whole world is paying attention now.
  6. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Israel is in big trouble, when the Muslim Brotherhood starts killing them off will it finally be the "End Of Israel" always remember this Obama guy and most of America's "new ledt wing liberals" turned on Israel like snakes.

    It seems like it happened overnight the amazing change in America's Left Wing, they went Anti Semetic in the blink of an eye and Obama certainly has no love for Israel the Israeli's know that now.
    Israel shocked by Obama's betrayal of Mubarak | Reuters

    IS OBAMA REALLY A MUSLIM AT HEART
    IF ANY OF YOU HAVE RELATIVES IN ISRAEL YOU BETTER GET THEM OUT
    ISRAELI'S IN ISRAEL IF ANY OF YOU READ THIS I HAVE NEWS FOR YOU, AMERICA'S LEFT WING LIBERALS ARE NOW IN A DEEP PASSIONATE LOVE AFFAIR WITH MUSLIMS, SO, WATCH OUT.

    POOR LITTLE ISRAEL SURROUNDED BY THEIR ENEMY GOD HELP THEM
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2011
  7. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    In the back of everyone's minds ... and we all know it ... 2012.

    2012 ... is there and every worldwide problem will be magnified now.

    NEM nodding his head thinking of all the times he brought up the RAPTURE in this forum.
  8. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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  9. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    That's funny! Fogbuster is nodding too.
  10. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    I really need to arm myself. 2012 has popped into my mind a couple of times. What was it Nostrodamus said too?
  11. Triple-T

    Triple-T Rookie

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    Yeah. Maybe Egypt will gang up with Jordan and Syria and finally stop that Israeli problem for good!

    :rolleyes:


    Egypt better be careful or they'll end up like Sudan.
  12. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #54 Jersey

    I kind of agree with the cynicism behind this post. Egypt may have numbers and fancy military equipment, but Israel would likely mop the floor with Egypt in a conventional war. Though Israel has struggled somewhat with 4GW in the last few years, they, like the US, are still masters of 3GW.
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2011
  13. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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  14. chicowalker

    chicowalker On the Roster

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    only in harry's fantasy land
    (which would be, btw, the world's worst amusement park -- even worse than the creation "museum" thing down in Kentucky)
  15. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The 4GW coverage is spotty where I live sometimes. Either that or I need to download the OS software...

    seriously I'll bite. What the hell are these acronyms?
  16. Triple-T

    Triple-T Rookie

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    Fourth Generational Warfare. 4GW.

    I tend to disagree with Nikolai here. I think Israel understands 4GW pretty well and they are exceptional at 3GW. Israel is not going to fall to any of these middle eastern nations, with or without US assistance.
  17. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #54 Jersey

    Thanks for the clarification on the 4GW. I was in a rush and didn't feel like typing it out. I'm also wireless illiterate and forgot that 3G and 4G are cell phone thingies; thanks for reminding me Mr. P. :singing:

    I agree that Israel understands 4GW very well, but they have struggled with it, because I'm sure you know that the media angle is a very important part of the overall concept. Israel has improved, as can be seen from the Gaza conflict, but those lessons were learned the hard way in 2006 and during the Al Aqsa Intifada. Personally, I think Israel has introduced some interesting concepts for waging 4GW, but I'm not so sure they will be wholly applicable to the American experience in the Middle East.

    In the end, I agree with you. Israel is not in any existential danger from the Egyptian military, but that border crossing at Rafah may become a real problem.
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2011
  18. patsboy44

    patsboy44 Rookie

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    Will be interesting to see its effect on Israel in the next few months.
  19. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Certainly hard to be optimistic. I'll add a couple zigs from the standard viewpoint, without any great amount of certainty:

    - Muslim Brotherhood long ago renounced violence in Egypt. We don't know whether that goes away once they are one of a number of parties vying for power, or if they take power. Observers place them at getting between 30-40% of the vote, if there was a real-life election there.

    - El Baradei, thus far, seems at least passably popular there. He can at least participate in the demos without getting lynched. He may end up being the Chalaby of Egypt, but it seems like he's a legit alternative. We don't know yet.

    - Nobody dares say or hope it, but what if "the people", as a mass of people, can accept the "cold peace?" What if they do elsewhere in the Arab world?

    Thread this needle correctly and the false choice of autocrat vs. theocrat goes away... we'll see.

    A "stay tuned" situation. My gut says the "optimism window" is pretty narrow, from a pro-Israeli point of view. I take a certain amount of comfort from the relatively non-violent nature of the protests thus far, but I have trouble seeing a stable Egyptian government that honors its current relationship with Israel.

    From the POV of an Egyptian? At least they can make choices I don't like democratically (even if they were previously making choices I do like autocratically.)

    It's kind of hard to condition one's happiness on someone else's subjugation. What a lovely surprise it would be if we didn't need dictators to rule in Arab nations, once their own populations rise up.

    That's the thing about democracy: it's not "the will of the people so long as that's convenient to American (or Israeli) policy objectives."

    PFnV
  20. Harry Boy

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