Ed Bouchette: NFL spygate ... time to move on (says teams never change signals?)

[JoeSixPat]

Interesting article here - the reporter makes a few mistakes in terms of understanding certain aspects of "spygate" but he makes some interesting points

i.e. we now know that nearly all teams were aware of the Patriots taping practices yet kept their mouths shut about it and it continued, therefore it was no big deal and/or those teams got what they deserved..

But there's a ton of misinformation here that a credible reporter should correct (unfortunatly he doesn't post his email or make room for comments)

He also states unequivocally that the Colts were caught piping in noise!

Here's some highlights:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08146/884717-66.stm

I'm not quite sure why he insists on comparing rule breaking in Football to baseball - there's no shortage of teams in football who have cheated, been fined even more than the Patriots and lost first round draft picks...

Ed Bouchette on the Steelers: NFL spygate ... time to move on
An offseason look inside the team, issues & questions
Sunday, May 25, 2008
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

....A list of top five sports cheating scandals in USA Today Sports Weekly had at No. 2 the spy in the scoreboard at the Polo Grounds when Bobby Thomson's home run -- the "shot heard 'round the world" -- won the NL 1951 pennant for the New York Giants against the Brooklyn Dodgers. More than 50 years later, it was revealed that Giants manager Leo Durocher posted a guy with a telescope to steal the catcher's signals, and that Thomson knew what pitch was coming.

That's at least as illegal as anything the Patriots might have done, but it also was something that was widespread during the times. The Pirates' Harvey Haddix pitched 12 perfect innings in Milwaukee in 1959, even though many Pirates claimed the Braves had a guy in their scoreboard trying to steal signals.

No one spoke out at the time, and the practice continued.

Was New England's taping practice any worse than the Indianapolis Colts' enhancing the crowd noise inside their domed stadium when opposing offenses were on the field? Although coaches within their division knew about it, no one spoke up. It took a story in the Post-Gazette after the Steelers played in Indianapolis during the 2005 regular season for the practice to become public, forcing the Colts to tone it down thereafter.

Then for some reason Bouchette seems to purposefully ignore the recent findings and admissions that other teams tape - yes from the sidelines as well. These reporters will take Matt Walsh's word as gold, and then will get selective amnesia when he confirmed that other teams tape signals. He also doesn't know that Jimmy Johnson admitted to the practice himself - and isn't even smart enough to know how long such things have been going on, as noted in what should be by now, a pretty well known story, at least among reporters with internet access - http://www.thesportgallery.com/sport-stories/1967aug-nflspy.html

No, everyone did not do it. That's a misconception that has been repeated ever since the Patriots were caught in September.

The practice was unique to Belichick and his crew. Some pro scouts advancing games have told me that they've tried to steal the signals of opposing coaches on the sideline -- which is as legal as trying to pick up the third-base coaches' signals in baseball. Some say it can help, some say it's futile and wastes time.

"I didn't think it was worth the time and energy you were looking at it,'' said Hal Hunter, who spent 23 years in the league as a coach and pro scout, including four as the Steelers' offensive line coach in the 1980s.

Apparently this guy's also not smart enough to realize this only works if teams are stupid enough to use the same signals - assuming he's not suggesting such analysis is being done on the fly in a game, which would be even more stupid to suggest.

But, if you can set up a sophisticated system like the Patriots had, it was worth it. New England would break down its videotape of the coaches using their hand signals from earlier games and match it with the defense that was used on that play.

Defenses normally use the same or similar signals from game to game and even year to year under the same coordinators. The reason is simple: It's not as easy to change signals in football as it is in baseball, where the calls are simple. It will confuse the players -- the reason for so many of those "miscommunications.''

So what he's saying - and this is the first time I've heard any reporter or anyone say it - is that all teams know that Belichick was taping signals and all teams are unable to change their signal calling - because changing them is too complicated - so the same signals are used for entire - and even multiple seasons.

EVERY other reporter seems to say unequivocally that signal stealing is the norm and all are changing their signals - which makes abolute sense.

What kindof crack is this guy smoking?

 

[JoePats]

Re: Ed Bouchette on the Steelers: NFL spygate ... time to move on

"it will confuse the players"

They only need one guy to take the signals in. How complicated could it possibly be?

Also, all the team has to do is put a second signal caller, or even use two dummy signalers. It would make stealing signals exponentially more difficult as you would have to first figure out which signs are accurate. If you use the same signals from year to year as this guy suggests, you shouldn't be a coach in the league. Jeez that part makes no sense.

 

[patsfaninpa]

Re: Ed Bouchette on the Steelers: NFL spygate ... time to move on

I'm sure it would confuse the likes of Joey Porter. That Smith kid last year.
Who was that other genius on 01 Steelers. Flowers? Talking about how the
better team lost. Not too many high iq's on that Pitt defense.

 

[Metaphors]

Re: Ed Bouchette on the Steelers: NFL spygate ... time to move on

EVERY other reporter seems to say unequivocally that signal stealing is the norm and all are changing their signals - which makes abolute sense.

What kindof crack is this guy smoking?

How about this...you give the MLB a play card on his arm like the QB has and then you just signal in numbers on the card. You just change the number assignments from game-to-game or even half-to-half (you could even go series-to-series if you were paranoid enough).

So why didn't any teams do this? Actually, at least one of the Walsh tapes showed a team doing this. Belichick even mentioned it in his CBS interview. Nobody is making the point that it is amazingly simple to avoid getting your defensive signals stolen. Just another of the inconvenient truths that have managed to stay out of the mainstream media.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Ed Bouchette: NFL spygate ... time to move on (says teams never change signals -!

Even the doofus commissioner has made the point SEVERAL times in his meanderings on the subject stating that it is not against the rules to steal signs (sans video) and that teams are aware of that and take precautions to guard against it unless they are idiots. They pay several millions of dollars to guys who can study tape and diagnose offensive formations but are too dense to memorize a new set of signals weekly? No wonder baseball players get paid so much more, they have to do that daily.

Beyond tightening a league's enforcement of their poorly worded and selectively interpreted rules, the legacy of spygate will be shoddy sports journalism. Beyond the fact that people are drawn to cover something they think they understand, you can get away with a lot more inaccuracy and incosistency than you could if covering something that matters beyond entertainment. In the ESPN age sports reporters have become akin to something they would universally gag at being compared to, the bloviating idiot entertainment/media critic. Maybe one day someone will write a scathing piece on how this shameful practice was allowed to continue because nobody in their own industry (beyond disgruntled fans) ever called them on it.

Ed seems to like to sling around half baked accusations based on his apparent misunderstanding of what can, was or is being done. We didn't tape signals for in game use, others reportedly did (or as Clayton backtracked to of late tried to). We don't use a lot of no huddle except in 2 minute hurry up mode. A team that would benefit from stolen signals being called in to a QB running a no huddle would be more likely to use it on an almost routine basis. Especially in the second half. Maybe Ed should try talking to Howard Mudd.

 

[tdw777]

Re: Ed Bouchette: NFL spygate ... time to move on (says teams never change signals -!

Ed Bouchette has a dislike for BB going back to Cleveland days.

I never did see anything in the rules (operations manual or constitution) that specifically mentions the taping of signals. The 2006 memo says it..but prior to that, I can't recall anything specific to the taping of signals.

 

[DESERTPAT]

Interesting article here - the reporter makes a few mistakes in terms of understanding certain aspects of "spygate" but he makes some interesting points

i.e. we now know that nearly all teams were aware of the Patriots taping practices yet kept their mouths shut about it and it continued, therefore it was no big deal and/or those teams got what they deserved..

But there's a ton of misinformation here that a credible reporter should correct (unfortunatly he doesn't post his email or make room for comments)

He also states unequivocally that the Colts were caught piping in noise!

Here's some highlights:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08146/884717-66.stm

I'm not quite sure why he insists on comparing rule breaking in Football to baseball - there's no shortage of teams in football who have cheated, been fined even more than the Patriots and lost first round draft picks...



Then for some reason Bouchette seems to purposefully ignore the recent findings and admissions that other teams tape - yes from the sidelines as well. These reporters will take Matt Walsh's word as gold, and then will get selective amnesia when he confirmed that other teams tape signals. He also doesn't know that Jimmy Johnson admitted to the practice himself - and isn't even smart enough to know how long such things have been going on, as noted in what should be by now, a pretty well known story, at least among reporters with internet access - http://www.thesportgallery.com/sport-stories/1967aug-nflspy.html




Apparently this guy's also not smart enough to realize this only works if teams are stupid enough to use the same signals - assuming he's not suggesting such analysis is being done on the fly in a game, which would be even more stupid to suggest.



So what he's saying - and this is the first time I've heard any reporter or anyone say it - is that all teams know that Belichick was taping signals and all teams are unable to change their signal calling - because changing them is too complicated - so the same signals are used for entire - and even multiple seasons.

EVERY other reporter seems to say unequivocally that signal stealing is the norm and all are changing their signals - which makes abolute sense.

What kindof crack is this guy smoking?

I read the article, its about what you would expect from Squeeler Homer.
The ignorance is mind boggling.

 

[LuthierJr]

I e-mailed ED. Here is a copy of my e-mail:

Ed,

Interesting article you published on the 25th. There are many glaring mistakes, but just a prominent one I'll point out to you. You say:

"No, everyone did not do it. That's a misconception that has been repeated ever since the Patriots were caught in September.
The practice was unique to Belichick and his crew...."

But in fact you couldn't be more wrong. Lets take some excerpts of a interview Jimmy Johnson gave back in September last year on WFAN.

Q: How about the spying thing Jimmy. You’re a coach does that bother you what Belichick did?

JJ: Oh please. I’ve said it on our show. Eighteen years ago a scout for the Chiefs told me what they did, and he said what you need to do is just take your camera and you go and zoom in on the signal caller and that way you can sync it up. The problem is that if they’re not on the press box side you can’t do it from the press box, you have to do it from the sideline. This was 18 years ago.

Q: You think the NFL came down too hard on them?

JJ: No, no, I said it on the show. He was wrong for doing it for the simple reason that the league knew this was going on not just in New England but around the league. And the league sent out the memorandum to all of the teams saying you cannot do this. And so that’s when Bill Belichick was wrong. After he got the memorandum saying don’t do it any more, he did it.

Q: Did you ever steal signals?

JJ: Oh in a heartbeat, yeah. Yes I did.

Q: Via video, Jimmy? Or no?

JJ: Oh yeah, I did it with video and so did a lot of other teams in the league. Just to make sure that you could study it and take your time, because you’re going to play the other team the second time around. But a lot of coaches did it, this was commonplace.

Q: But did you do it by taping the signal caller?

JJ: Yeah.

Q: Oh you did.

JJ: That’s what I’m saying. I was saying one of Marty Schottenheimer’s scouts, Mark Hatley, who has passed away now, Mark told me that’s how they did it, and Howard Mudd their offensive line coach with Kansas City, who now coaches for Tony Dungy, he was the best in the entire league at stealing signals.

Q: Where’d you put your guy who was videotaping? Where was he?

JJ: My guy was up with my camera crew in the press box. So you’d just put an extra camera up with your camera crew in the press box who zoomed in on the signal callers. That’s the best way to do it, but anyway you can’t always do that because the press box camera crew might be on the same side as the opposing team. If they’re on the same side as the opposing team that’s when you need to do it from the sideline.


You can see that it has been going on for AT LEAST 18 years. I'm sure Marty Schottenheimer did not come up with the idea himself. He was under the tutelage of Lou Saban. The list of coaches that worked under Marty S. Is IMMENSE and encapsulates almost every team in the NFL. I'm not going to argue that what the Patriots did was not wrong, as it was against the rules, but stories like yours keep spreading the falsehoods of the situation, and you should be ashamed of yourself for, if nothing else, not doing proper research into the article. Now you can see just a small tidbit of the history of this taping maybe you should think about printing a retraction on your ignorant, and flat out false story.

 

[tuckeverlasting]

I e-mailed ED. Here is a copy of my e-mail:

Ed,

Interesting article you published on the 25th. There are many glaring mistakes, but just a prominent one I'll point out to you. You say:

"No, everyone did not do it. That's a misconception that has been repeated ever since the Patriots were caught in September.
The practice was unique to Belichick and his crew...."

But in fact you couldn't be more wrong. Lets take some excerpts of a interview Jimmy Johnson gave back in September last year on WFAN.

Q: How about the spying thing Jimmy. You’re a coach does that bother you what Belichick did?

JJ: Oh please. I’ve said it on our show. Eighteen years ago a scout for the Chiefs told me what they did, and he said what you need to do is just take your camera and you go and zoom in on the signal caller and that way you can sync it up. The problem is that if they’re not on the press box side you can’t do it from the press box, you have to do it from the sideline. This was 18 years ago.

Q: You think the NFL came down too hard on them?

JJ: No, no, I said it on the show. He was wrong for doing it for the simple reason that the league knew this was going on not just in New England but around the league. And the league sent out the memorandum to all of the teams saying you cannot do this. And so that’s when Bill Belichick was wrong. After he got the memorandum saying don’t do it any more, he did it.

Q: Did you ever steal signals?

JJ: Oh in a heartbeat, yeah. Yes I did.

Q: Via video, Jimmy? Or no?

JJ: Oh yeah, I did it with video and so did a lot of other teams in the league. Just to make sure that you could study it and take your time, because you’re going to play the other team the second time around. But a lot of coaches did it, this was commonplace.

Q: But did you do it by taping the signal caller?

JJ: Yeah.

Q: Oh you did.

JJ: That’s what I’m saying. I was saying one of Marty Schottenheimer’s scouts, Mark Hatley, who has passed away now, Mark told me that’s how they did it, and Howard Mudd their offensive line coach with Kansas City, who now coaches for Tony Dungy, he was the best in the entire league at stealing signals.

Q: Where’d you put your guy who was videotaping? Where was he?

JJ: My guy was up with my camera crew in the press box. So you’d just put an extra camera up with your camera crew in the press box who zoomed in on the signal callers. That’s the best way to do it, but anyway you can’t always do that because the press box camera crew might be on the same side as the opposing team. If they’re on the same side as the opposing team that’s when you need to do it from the sideline.


You can see that it has been going on for AT LEAST 18 years. I'm sure Marty Schottenheimer did not come up with the idea himself. He was under the tutelage of Lou Saban. The list of coaches that worked under Marty S. Is IMMENSE and encapsulates almost every team in the NFL. I'm not going to argue that what the Patriots did was not wrong, as it was against the rules, but stories like yours keep spreading the falsehoods of the situation, and you should be ashamed of yourself for, if nothing else, not doing proper research into the article. Now you can see just a small tidbit of the history of this taping maybe you should think about printing a retraction on your ignorant, and flat out false story.

yeah, when pigs fly.

 

[LuthierJr]

yeah, when pigs fly.

haha... yeah I know.. but I had to throw it in.

 

[flpunter]

I think this guys first part of the column nails it for me about video tapping. I emailed him back in Sept when he wrote a piece saying this had gone on for a long time and that Steelers coaches were aware of it and told him about it. I asked him how come you or the coaches didn't raise a big stink about it ? His short email back to me was he wishes they had. Fast foward 10 months to now and this guy says nobody stood up to BB...I call BS. The reason those Steeler coaches didn't say anything was because it didn't freakin matter in the end. That is why you never heard about taping prior to 2007 (F Charley Casserly). Now we hear this was an open secret. We read that careers, lives, food in kids mouths were on the line for coaches if they didn't win in the NFL. If the "cheating" was that effective some coach,GM or owner would have demanded something be done. They didn't. They waved to the camera,blocked signals or changed them. Every coach who I have read that addressed the matter of Def signals says that they have procedures in place to protect them. These coaches include Dungy, Mike Tomlin, Norv Turner and Marvin Lewis.

Finally, I believe this whole matter can be wrapped up with one quote.I wish I had a link but I have googled it till my eyes bled. Perhaps someone here can help me search. I know where the quote came from. It was an ESPN story by Morty dated I believe Sept 12th. I read this back when this incident was in its infancy. The story was about this taping had happened before. Morty wrote about the Green Bay incident. The story is still on ESPN and is usually the first one that pops up during a search. The version I read on Sept 12th had Morty doing his job as a journalist. If you write an article about a similiar incident a couple of years ago it begs the question which he did ask. The article stated when asked why the Packers did not report the Patriots to the league Bob Harlan CEO of the Packers stated "that is not why our asses got kicked". This quote has since been removed because it trivializes the "cheating" and that is not the way ESPN decided they were going to work the story. I have written the ESPN omsbudswoman to ask about this.The only link I have found is some poster on Digg who wrote about this back in Sept. I will keep searching cause this is a smoking gun regarding ESPN coverage and when they started their slant.