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Earth to Detroit: Hello??

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Fogbuster, Apr 4, 2007.

  1. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    What's it going to take to wake up these nitwits in Detroit??


    FORD March sales [highlight]down[/highlight] 9 pct...

    DaimlerChrysler [highlight]down[/highlight] 4 pct

    PRIUS POWER: Toyota up 11.7 pct...

    Honda up 7.3 pct...



    http://today.reuters.com/news/artic...UKOC_0_US-AUTOS-FORD-SALES.xml&src=rss&rpc=23
    http://today.reuters.com/news/artic..._0_US-AUTOS-CHRYSLER-SALES.xml&src=rss&rpc=23
    http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8O9ANA01&show_article=1
    http://today.reuters.com/news/artic...KOC_0_US-AUTOS-HONDA-SALES.xml&src=rss&rpc=23
     
  2. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It is the Unions fault, no it is NAFTA's fault, Oops it is Bill Clinton's fault.. oops it is the Democratic Congress fault.. bottom line is that Detroit has had opportunity to retool, and rethink their way of doing business, instead has spent millions on golden parachutes and opportunities for their leaders to fatten their wallets. OTOH, many of these cars are now made in the US.. it can be done, but the reality is american business may prefer to loose business as it may be helpful to their bottom line, not the workers bottom line, but to the guys in suits bottom line.
     
  3. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    You're right, many/most Toyotas and Hondas sold in the U.S. are now made in the U.S. In non-union plants where the execs are not all out for $100 million golden parachutes (thanks, Lee Iacocca).

    But the profits are going to.... Japan.

    So, where does this leave U.S. companies??? Socking the rear teat. Hey, if you like it, fine. I don't.


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  4. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Good God, I agree with you again :)
     
  5. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Two warm and fuzzy moments in one week, we are morphing into each other.. keep saying we have more in common, but you never listen you opinionated old fool.
     
  6. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    My last effort to buy an American was from Chrysler. I first had a leased car, and at the end of the lease when I was prepared to buy it, they made me a far lousier offer than I could get anywhere else for the same car. Then, to add insult to injury, they charged me an extra $25 for some sort of nonsense. So, instead, I went to Honda, which after all is better in terms of reliability, and bought a car there. I don't know what the problem with American car companies is. Their management is either idiots, or possibly (but unlikely) they made the decision to suffer losses in order to weaken the unions and recreate themselves.
     
  7. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    Union workers. Pure and simple. But you're too partisan to see the forest through the trees.

    I love how the ever-partisan Patters just can't bring himself to blame the union workers... :rofl:

    Poor quality cars...? It's either management's fault or they are deliberately making a poor product to hurt the union..!! But it can't possibly be the union workers' fault..!! Nope..!! Not union workers..!! They are never at fault..!! :rofl:
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2007
  8. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    D) All of the above. :D


    American car manufacturers have made an inferior product for quite some time. Ultimately, the product is what matters. People will pay a little more for something better, and if it's relatively the same price, they'll buy it all the time. Other issues though, are managment, and the unions they are chained to at the ankles. When management suffers through quarterly loss, after quarterly loss, and hands out another $10 million bonus, I can't feel bad for said company. Furthermore, it is management that makes 7mpg guzzlers in an era of $3 gas, and wonders why the lots are full of SUV's that won't sell. When you couple that with the terrible union deals they are saddled with, you've got a loser all the way around.

    Anyhow, here is an article I keep handy regarding GM and their union deal. I keep it handy for people like Patters who think unions are A#1, and saintly, while corps are all things evil. Corps are bad, but guess what, some unions are too.


    http://www.mises.org/story/2124

    Excerpts:

    First, the company would be without so-called Monday-morning automobiles. That is, automobiles poorly made for no other reason than because they happened to be made on a day when too few workers showed up, or too few showed up sober, to do the jobs they were paid to do. Without the UAW, General Motors would simply have fired such workers and replaced them with ones who would do the jobs they were paid to do. And so, without the UAW, GM would have produced more reliable, higher quality cars, had a better reputation for quality, and correspondingly greater sales volume to go with it. Why didn't they do this? Because with the UAW, such action by GM would merely have provoked work stoppages and strikes, with no prospect that the UAW would be displaced or that anything would be better after the strikes. Federal Law, specifically, The National Labor Relations Act of 1935, long ago made it illegal for companies simply to get rid of unions.



    (Unbelievably, at its assembly plant in Oklahoma City, GM is actually obliged by its UAW contract to pay 2,300 workers full salary and benefits for doing absolutely nothing. As The New York Times describes it, "Each day, workers report for duty at the plant and pass their time reading, watching television, playing dominoes or chatting. Since G.M. shut down production there last month, these workers have entered the Jobs Bank, industry's best form of job insurance. It pays idled workers a full salary and benefits even when there is no work for them to do.")

    Third, without the UAW, GM would have an average unit cost per automobile close to that of non-union Toyota. Toyota makes a profit of about $2,000 per vehicle, while GM suffers a loss of about $1,200 per vehicle, a difference of $3,200 per unit. And the far greater part of that difference is the result of nothing but GM's being forced to deal with the UAW. (Over a year ago, The Cincinnati Enquirer reported that "the United Auto Workers contract costs GM $2,500 for each car sold.")
     
  9. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Pro Bowl Player

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    #80 Jersey

    Sounds pretty similar to what is going on with our government.....

    its like a Kristol Ball! (oh yes...that spelling is correct)
     
  10. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yeah, right, let's blame Detroit's problems on the American worker. Give them lower wages and fewer benefits, and management is sure to do a better job designing reliable cars and offering sensible deals.
     
  11. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    Yep, they deserve 30-hour work weeks @$35/hour for putting on a few bolts or a headlight. Meanwhile, a guy/gal who makes half of that, works a full week, does a job two or three times better, WITHOUT the need for union "help", makes a car that is consistently OUTselling the U.S. union counter-part.

    Management has been out of their minds, too, with their top exec salaries. Totally unjustified. But the unions have more than mirrored that.


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  12. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Wow, what utter disrespect for what they do.

    And that has to do with their superior ability to put on a few bolts? Replace union workers with nonunion workers and the cars and policies would be just as lousy. The problem is with the quality and design of Detroits cars. Why they make so many more gas guzzlers than Honda or Toyota is anyone's guess.

    Yeah, it's the working man we should go after. Let's cut his wages. Let's make everyone poorer. It's not wages, not even management's wages, it's their model for designing, marketing, and servicing cars that's a mess. I wanted to buy an American car, but Chrysler is everything to discourage me. After I leased the car, I thought they should have given me an incentive to keep the car I leased. Instead, it would have been cheaper to buy another car of the same model and year, which I didn't want to risk.

    You can always tell a right-winger. They blame the poor and working people first, before they blame management or shareholders.
     
  13. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    So unions are justified to demand wages two and three times what the market would otherwise pay? And do shoddy work on top of it? AND take zero responsibility for that shoddy work??



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  14. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Unions are simply part of the competitive landscape. Are they perfect? No. Of course not. There's as much corruption and dishonesty in unions as there is in any other equally large group, be in a political party, shareholders, a church, etc. But, unions have played key roles in improving the quality of life all workers. Health benefits, 40 hour work week, minimum wage, child labor laws, OSHA, Family Leave, etc. are all at least partly the result of unions.

    As far as shoddy work, I'm not sure that's the issue. I think in general union workers do better jobs. Many unions for instance take disciplinary actions on their own if someone is drinking on the job or fails to live up to the union's end of the contract.

    There are many people, union and non, who are not honest with themselves with regard to how easy their jobs are. I saw that all the time when I was in technology. People complained about how hard they worked, after they spent 3 hours in meetings, 1 hours at lunch, 1 hour surfing the net, and 3 hours actually working. And that was at one of the top companies in terms of profits and productivity! Whether a union worker or not, any large group of Americans is fundamentally the same. It doesn't matter about race, politics, ethnicity, or union membership, my experience is that the excellent worker is a rare bird, and most workers are simply average.
     
  15. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Patters you are wasting your breath on this phantom guy, he comes up with some anecdotal evidence he hears on some right wing radio show and runs with it.. lots of BS, few facts and suspect fewer life experiences.. lots of mouth, not much substance.. argue with a more worthy target.
     
  16. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yeah, I know. Have you noticed he's sounding more and more like Harry Boy. Even uses the "Auntie Pelosi" expression!
     
  17. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    At least Harry can laugh at himself and backs himself up with a few facts, this guy is off the board.. betcha he will get himself banned within the week.
     
  18. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    You tell 'im!!

    "Even the guy who hates his guts will tell you he's a great coach," Holley said. "He's not interested in being buddies with them, and they're not interested in being buddies with him. All they expect from him is, "Give us a chance to win. I don't think people would say Bill Belichick is a great man. He's a great coach. He's an interesting man."
     
  19. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    :woohoo:

    Harry stole it from me!!


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  20. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    Harry and I are actually the same person. Except Harry's union, I'm not. I hate being forced to join anything.


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