Welcome to PatsFans.com

Dukes and Baldinger discuss the Patriots weaknesses

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by PATRIOT64, Jul 21, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. PATRIOT64

    PATRIOT64 Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2006
    Messages:
    3,775
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

  2. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2005
    Messages:
    20,550
    Likes Received:
    25
    Ratings:
    +25 / 0 / -0

  3. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    23,735
    Likes Received:
    47
    Ratings:
    +53 / 0 / -1

    #50 Jersey

    Not sure how you can say that Seymour isn't dominating. Especially after last year's performance. Seymour is still the best 3-4 DE in the league and no one compares to him.

    In fact, the only player who is in Seymour's league as a 3-4 D-lineman is Jamaal Williams of San Diego.
  4. PATRIOT64

    PATRIOT64 Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2006
    Messages:
    3,775
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    Seymour did indeed have a nice season in 08 with those 8 sacks, but you still can't compare that with the monster years when he was younger but then again you really can't expect to keep that pace forever.
  5. PATRIOT64

    PATRIOT64 Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2006
    Messages:
    3,775
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    How can you leave out Luis Castillo and Haloti Ngata? - Seymour is better than them though
  6. Pat_the_Patriot

    Pat_the_Patriot Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    239
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    I think Seymour is the best... but I would consider Aaron Smith in his league, too...... for 3-4 DEs.

    100% don't understand how folks could call Seymour anything BUT dominant after his performance last year.

    In fact... I like our D line over all other 3-4 D lines in the league.... Sey, Wilfork and Warren..... Wow.

    That's what we get with 3 first round picks manning our line, fantastic drafting, and even better coaching.
  7. PATRIOT64

    PATRIOT64 Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2006
    Messages:
    3,775
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    Drafting was decent in the past few years but fantastic it was not - 2006 was horrid except for our Kicker we drafted - Maroney will be gone if he is non effective this year.

    2007 was bad as well if you don't include the wheels and deals we made getting Welker and Moss
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2009
  8. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2006
    Messages:
    40,774
    Likes Received:
    64
    Ratings:
    +89 / 3 / -1

    Disable Jersey

    Williams isn't even the best 3-4 NT anymore, and Castillo is nowhere near as good as Seymour.
  9. PATRIOT64

    PATRIOT64 Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2006
    Messages:
    3,775
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    What I think Dukes left out of his analogy of this team was that we should sign Vick to be our situational pass rusher at OLB since he loves the guy so much and wants him to come to NE :banned:
  10. Pat_the_Patriot

    Pat_the_Patriot Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    239
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Ngata is a strange one for me... never can remember him in these debates.... just "seems" like a DT to me... which IS an unfair knock... since Seymour "seems' like a DT, too... I just happen to watch a lot more pats football than Ravens...

    THAT being said... Ngata does move around an awful lot... IS he truly a DE?

    Regardless, I agree that when he plays the edge, he is a force... so I see your point... just not sure if he would be classified as a true DE.

    Also.... I think that Seymour is the best of them all.... so, to the original point... NO idea how anyone can knock us on our D line... again, I think it's the best in the league.
  11. Pat_the_Patriot

    Pat_the_Patriot Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    239
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    I'm not going to highjack the thread on a drafting debate... I think we can agree that we "hit" on Seymour, Warren and Wilfork, no?

    I would say (and do say) that all three of those folks were fantastic pickups and act as the anchor of our defense.
  12. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    23,735
    Likes Received:
    47
    Ratings:
    +53 / 0 / -1

    #50 Jersey

    How can I leave those two out? Very easily. Ngata plays in a hybrid system that's never truly a 3-4.

    Luis Castillo is no where close to being in Seymour's league, imho. In fact, I put Castillo below Jarvis Green in terms of talent.
  13. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    23,735
    Likes Received:
    47
    Ratings:
    +53 / 0 / -1

    #50 Jersey

    Who is a better 3-4 NT than Jamaal Williams?
  14. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2005
    Messages:
    20,550
    Likes Received:
    25
    Ratings:
    +25 / 0 / -0

    I don't know why not? By the numbers it's the same ballpark, the clear difference was in the health/talent of the supporting cast. Richard Seymour

    The man plays at a consistently high level, injuries do slow him, but they slow everybody. He may not be as inexpensive as he was on his rookie contract, but as a proven veteran he's earned to right to negotiate all the market will bear. I truly do not understand the criticism he receives, perhaps on an individual play it's warranted, but on his production as a whole - Sey is a stud and worth every penny.
  15. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2006
    Messages:
    40,774
    Likes Received:
    64
    Ratings:
    +89 / 3 / -1

    Disable Jersey

    Wilfork and Ngata come to mind right away. Pittsburgh fans would argue Hampton, as well.
  16. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    18,261
    Likes Received:
    23
    Ratings:
    +28 / 0 / -0

    #75 Jersey

    The two pundits are correct in their fundamental points, however.

    The Patriot pass rush was brutally bad last year. It made a solid B secondary into a C- one last year. When a QB has five seconds to make all his reads, of course the secondary is going to get burned.

    I'm interested to see how a healthy AD, a healthy Tank Williams and the reacquired TBC affect the situation this year. The real sleeper here, IMHO, will be Crable.

    Plus, the secondary went from a solid B to what I believe will be a B+ (and a DEEP one, at that).

    To me, the real weakness on the D comes down to Bruschi (sadly). We need someone to step up to pair with Mayo. McKenzie would have been very interesting if he hadn't gotten hurt. Guyton will be a very important player to watch in TC.
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2009
  17. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2005
    Messages:
    20,550
    Likes Received:
    25
    Ratings:
    +25 / 0 / -0

    Don't come out of hibernation and immediately start talking sense, it's intimidating to we mere mortals.
  18. farn

    farn Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2009
    Messages:
    1,713
    Likes Received:
    2
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    Sey gets a bad rap for his injured seasons in recent years. In 08 he was more of a difference maker than many give him credit for.

    Lets see what happens in the fall... I, for one, would not be surprised to see Sey - not Vince - in a NE uniform in Sept '10 (though I hope they can keep Wilfork...).
  19. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    23,735
    Likes Received:
    47
    Ratings:
    +53 / 0 / -1

    #50 Jersey

    No way. Sorry. Wilfork isn't better than Williams.. And Ngata doesn't play NT. He's more of a DE/DT.
  20. Pat_the_Patriot

    Pat_the_Patriot Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    239
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    I disagree... I would take Wilfork and Hampton over Williams.

    Ngata is a strange one... tough to really establish what his position is... but he belongs in the discussion for either position, imho.
  21. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2004
    Messages:
    5,751
    Likes Received:
    10
    Ratings:
    +15 / 1 / -0

    I htought it was a miscarraige that Seymour did not make the All Star teams last season. One of the reasosn was that he was not on the original list of probowl voting lists, and had to be written in.:eek:
  22. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2004
    Messages:
    5,751
    Likes Received:
    10
    Ratings:
    +15 / 1 / -0

  23. patfanken

    patfanken Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    5,494
    Likes Received:
    28
    Ratings:
    +38 / 0 / -2

    #91 Jersey

    One thing that has been a constant in preseason analyses im reading was repeated by Baldinger, much to my continuing dismay, where he contended that the Pats lost their BEST pass rusher when we traded Mike Vrabel.

    Did anyone one of these guys WATCH last season. Somehow I think we are going to be able to replace those FOUR sacks Mike racked up last season (ONE in the last 11 games) :rolleyes:
  24. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2006
    Messages:
    40,774
    Likes Received:
    64
    Ratings:
    +89 / 3 / -1

    Disable Jersey

    One bad season when he was injured isn't really a reason to say that Vrabel wasn't the team's best pass rusher.
  25. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2005
    Messages:
    20,550
    Likes Received:
    25
    Ratings:
    +25 / 0 / -0

    Yup, though we might reasonably lean toward the year early theory.
  26. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2006
    Messages:
    40,774
    Likes Received:
    64
    Ratings:
    +89 / 3 / -1

    Disable Jersey

    That, combined with a bonus payment, certainly makes sense.
  27. patfanken

    patfanken Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    5,494
    Likes Received:
    28
    Ratings:
    +38 / 0 / -2

    #91 Jersey

    From what I can infer, Mike was going to be a cap casualty at least. This trade was BB/Pioli (who has TONS of cap room) giving Mike a corporate thank you. Making sure he got he $1MM roster bonus, and his hefty salary. He also avoided the embarassment of being released.

    Box, I think the year too early thought was right on the money. Besides weren't there reports a few years ago about the possibility of Vrabel retiring to go back and coach at OSU.

    At any rate, no one is saying that Vrabel would have been a liability to the Pats on the playing field, but he would have been one on the cap. And as you know the first rule of capology, every dollar you give to one player there is one less dollar for everyone else.
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2009
  28. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2005
    Messages:
    20,550
    Likes Received:
    25
    Ratings:
    +25 / 0 / -0

    Vrabes is apparently looking to coach when he hangs it up, but this move looks to be a classic Belichick effort that gets his golden boy paid, helps out a friend in a turn-around situation, clears cap space, and opens roster space for younger players to compete and rebuild for the future.
  29. PATRIOTSFANINPA

    PATRIOTSFANINPA Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Messages:
    15,718
    Likes Received:
    8
    Ratings:
    +8 / 0 / -0

    Do you think if Denver jumped first that Belichick would have sent Vrabel and Cassel for the same trade value as he did with KC to the Broncos to help out McDaniels the same way?

    I don't,His relationship with Pioli went higher than any ex-coach I think thus Pioli got a great deal and NE dropped a leader but more importantly he dropped age on his defense which was equally important.
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2009
  30. robertweathers

    robertweathers Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2006
    Messages:
    7,628
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    I agree. It was a financial/respect decision. I don't necessarily think he did it as a solid for Pioli, but rather than insult him by cutting/forcing a renegotiation (in which he did a cap-friendly deal back in 05 I think) they traded him.

    Sure his sack total was down significantly, but he still came up with a INT, 4 PDs and forced a fumble which is more than what Bru did in 08.

    In the end, BB felt he would get the same production from Woods/Crable/TBC and potentially someone like Burgess for less dollars, and with him being 34 at the start of 09, it made sense to BB to move in a different direction.

    My .02$
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page