Dream Team vs. Olypmic Team

[ausbacker]

Probably for the best then. You've been proven horribly wrong on just about every front when it comes to the Heat since the Big 3 came together.

Keep feeding your ego Kontra given I challenged you about these phantom Heat quotes I supposedly wrote. You still haven't referenced them.

And for the record, yes I probably have been wrong about the Heat in some regards.

 

[captain insano]

bird was by far a better player than lebron james. as was magic and jordan. its not even close. all three of those players did everything better. hell the league was much tougher back then. i think a certain heat fan has lost his objectivity that he claims to have so much of. either that hes not old enough to have seen bird magic and jordan play in there prime. i am.

 

[captain insano]

i love lebron....but i'd take bird over lebron in their primes

bird was ******* amazing

who wouldnt? bird was absolutely unbelievable. there aren't words to describe how good he was. you can say the same for magic and jordan. those three players are better than any player in the nba today hands down. lebron dunks better than bird thats about it.

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

Kevin Durant scored 30 points and James had 19 on a day he joined Michael Jordan as the only players to win the NBA title, regular-season MVP, NBA Finals MVP and Olympic gold.

Didn't some guy named Bird do it also?????? Unless they mean doing it in the same year.........

 

[Real World]

So you missed LeBron leading the Heat in the Finals then?

Kontra, without Chris Bosh hitting a handful of 3 pointers in game 7 this year, the Heat wouldn't have even made it to the finals. More importantly, how did Lebron do in the Finals the previous year? How was this "leader of men" in the 4th quarter of those games against Dallas? I wouldn't ever say that Lebron isn't good, or that he isn't great. I think he's an exceptional talent. I think he took a step forward this year, compared to his performances in years prior. That game 6 this year vs the Celtics (granted the C's are old and slow) showed a lot. The problem is, he turtles, or defers far too much in clutch situations to be placed on the level of a Magic, Micheal, or Larry Bird. The best basketball in my lifetime, was 1980's basketball, and these 3 players were the best of that era. To me, they are hands down 3 of the top players of alltime. They all won with their teams. Not with teams they moved to for the best chance to win. The latter of which, makes one a follower.

 

[Kontradiction]

Keep feeding your ego Kontra given I challenged you about these phantom Heat quotes I supposedly wrote. You still haven't referenced them.

And for the record, yes I probably have been wrong about the Heat in some regards.

Probably is an understatement...

The Heat won't be winning the NBA Championship anytime soon. There's nothing in the roster behind Wade & LeBron that is Championship calibre.

Wrong.

Is it ironic that when it was just LeBron at the Cavs he was playing on a considerably better side than where he is with Miami now?

Chris Bosh is a joke. Pretend superstar.

Wrong.

I think you need to re-read my initial comment Kontra. It states "WHEN IT WAS JUST LEBRON AT THE CAVS" intimating that he was playing on a better team.

Given the bull**** that surrounded The Miami Heat in the pre-season until now your side is a competitive joke and the entire NBA knows it. Miami won't win a championship without moving on Bosh and stripping down your roster and re-starting.

Kontra you are aware that you can have a better team without having better players aren't you? There are defined roles, systems and structures employed that can make a less talented team better than the team of champions.

As far as I am concerned (and the results look to validate that) the LeBron Cavs were a better team than your LeBron Heat.

The Heat aren't going on a magic mushroom ride because of the issues most of us brought up in the off-season. There's to many holes in the side and a massive issue with the size department. The Heat need a massive roster overhaul and perhaps next year will be their time.

The Heat have a massive gulf in the big man quality department. It's a ridiculous problem which you apparently think putting bodies there means it's fixed. No, it isn't.

Chris Bosh is playing well at the moment. The key will be can he continue this for the necessary 40 odd games to win a championship for you?


No, I completely believe LeBron's Cavs was a better side than your Heat. The players knew their roles and played them well enough to compliment the LeBron Me Show. At Miami those roles aren't as well defined and the general talent of Wade and LeBron is coasting you passed sides where you continue to play streetball.



None of the Heat's issues have been corrected. You've no reasonable PG distributor, a serious lack in quality talls and play school yard basketball. The Heat win because Wade and LeBron are simply that good.


Come on as of late? You mean they played like useless pricks in your slump and gave you serviceable performances more often than not at home during your mini-revival? C'mon Kontra, you're better than this tripe you're serving up.


You don't want to listen because you're head is so far up the proverbial Miami is ******* awesome arse that it's pointless repeating the same correct points over and over to you.

Kontra, you're completely and utterly caught up in the hype factor of the Heat and that's why I'm going to dismiss your blind homerism toward them. You're also working from the assumption that I think the Celtics are an unstoppable force. Well I don't and they have some very big problems both from Rondo, injuries and at center.

The Chicago Bulls right now are the best team in the East and probably second best in the NBA behind the Lakers. Both sides are settled, didn't make massive roster changes during the season, are coached well and are deep. I won't be surprised to see the Bulls-Lakers face off in the Championship.

I think the Heat's weaknesses are hugely problematic under the pressure of finals intensity. I also think the Celtics weaknesses (ala chemistry and a complete roster overhaul with injuries in key positions) will be hugely problematic too.

The Heat are a talented side but they're not a deep side. I haven't argued against that, I just don't think they are composed well enough to win a championship. The team has responded now but how many championship teams lose one game by 30 points to a side then beat them by 30? The roller coaster is to great in the discrepancy between good and bad performances by the Heat.

I agree with you on the Bulls and Kevin Love.

All horribly wrong. And that was from one thread in 2010. Should I even bother to start quoting posts from this past season about how the Heat's missing center was the reason for why they wouldn't win a championship, or is that enough?

And any time you want to back up your faulty assertion about LeBron's leadership in the Finals, feel free.

By the way, did you see LeBron leading Team USA to a gold medal yesterday? Or about what Krzyzewski said about him? But what does that idiot know?

 

[Kontradiction]

bird was by far a better player than lebron james. as was magic and jordan. its not even close. all three of those players did everything better. hell the league was much tougher back then. i think a certain heat fan has lost his objectivity that he claims to have so much of. either that hes not old enough to have seen bird magic and jordan play in there prime. i am.

Nobody is arguing over who is a better. I'll give it a few years before I even attempt that. Right now, I'll acknowledge Bird. And I was too young to see him live, but that's what the magic of NBAtv replays are for. I've seen plenty of old school Celtics games. So, with that in mind, I'll ask you the question, since aus simply can't back up his ridiculous comment...

What did Bird, in ANY ONE if his Finals appearances (much bigger sample size for you), do differently than LeBron did in his one? What did he scream at his teammates harder than LeBron did?

 

[captain insano]

Nobody is arguing over who is a better. I'll give it a few years before I even attempt that. Right now, I'll acknowledge Bird. And I was too young to see him live, but that's what the magic of NBAtv replays are for. I've seen plenty of old school Celtics games. So, with that in mind, I'll ask you the question, since aus simply can't back up his ridiculous comment...

What did Bird, in ANY ONE if his Finals appearances (much bigger sample size for you), do differently than LeBron did in his one? What did he scream at his teammates harder than LeBron did?

like i said in the post you quoted by me. he did everything better against much harder competition. whatever the game needed he did it. if it was a rebound he got it. if it was a clutch three pointer he made it. if it was a pass to set up a teammate he made it. if a player needed to be boxed out he did it. if he needed to take a charge he would. and he did those things in the most important part of the game including the playoffs and the finals. he is one of if not the greatest clutch player to ever play[magic and jordon right there with him]. he walked the walk talked the talk and backed it up all day long and twice on sunday. nobody was more universally respected by everybody than larry bird. you can ask your stupid question[and it is stupid I'm sorry] and frame it anyway you want to try and get the response you are looking for to win your message board gotcha game. but as you acknowledge yourself bird was the superior player. the fact that you would even entertain this silly question just shows your total lack of objectivity when it comes to lebron james. hes got a ring now but larry bird he aint. why don't you tell me what one thing lebron did better than larry bird in the finals other than dunking[jumping] lol. make sure to include the date of the game and the exact time of the game and the situation[insert sarcasm]. also keep in mind the competition level. i know you would agree the lakers of the 80s were much tougher than okc thunder. instead of always trying to make people look bad . try having a friendly conversation instead. let the name calling begin.

 

[Kontradiction]

like i said in the post you quoted by me. he did everything better against much harder competition. whatever the game needed he did it. if it was a rebound he got it. if it was a clutch three pointer he made it. if it was a pass to set up a teammate he made it. if a player needed to be boxed out he did it. if he needed to take a charge he would. and he did those things in the most important part of the game including the playoffs and the finals. he is one of if not the greatest clutch player to ever play[magic and jordon right there with him]. he walked the walk talked the talk and backed it up all day long and twice on sunday. nobody was more universally respected by everybody than larry bird. you can ask your stupid question[and it is stupid I'm sorry] and frame it anyway you want to try and get the response you are looking for to win your message board gotcha game.

LeBron literally did all of those things in the Finals.

but as you acknowledge yourself bird was the superior player. the fact that you would even entertain this silly question just shows your total lack of objectivity when it comes to lebron james.

I actually am willing to be objective. It's a completely fair question and if any one of you can show me one thing that Bird did in any one of his appearances that LeBron didn't do in this one, I'm be more than happy to yield. The best that you can come up with is some half ****ed post describing exactly what LeBron did in the Finals. The guy played all five positions at one point for God's sake.

hes got a ring now but larry bird he aint. why don't you tell me what one thing lebron did better than larry bird in the finals other than dunking[jumping] lol. make sure to include the date of the game and the exact time of the game and the situation[insert sarcasm].

That's a loaded question which, as you're probably completely unaware of, is a logical fallacy. Secondly, I never made the assertion that LeBron did anything better than Bird. Instead, I was responding to a claim that Bird was a "better leader of men" than LeBron was. What I asked was a fair question: how and why? Since then, I haven't been able to get a response (probably because the person that made the claim knows how faulty the logic is and is instead hiding behind some response that he doesn't want to go back and forth with me).

also keep in mind the competition level. i know you would agree the lakers of the 80s were much tougher than okc thunder.

Competition level is absolutely irrelevant to the argument of being a "leader of men".

instead of always trying to make people look bad . try having a friendly conversation instead. let the name calling begin.

The irony is THICK.

 

[captain insano]

so the question is? who was the better leader of men? bird or lebron? and that question only includes the finals? and can we consider what they did on the court when answering this question? if we can consider there play on the court then refer to my previous post you quoted for my response. if not there is no right or wrong answer to this question. just ones opinion. you could ask who is a better leader of men larry bird or mario chalmers? we know who the better player is.

 

[Kontradiction]

so the question is? who was the better leader of men? bird or lebron? and that question only includes the finals? and can we consider what they did on the court when answering this question? if we can consider there play on the court then refer to my previous post you quoted for my response. if not there is no right or wrong answer to this question. just ones opinion. you could ask who is a better leader of men larry bird or mario chalmers? we know who the better player is.

Except the original statement was passed off as fact instead of opinion. If it had been the other way around, I wouldn't have asked. And your post is a copout.

And right now I would consider Bird the better player because of what he accomplished. When LeBron's career is finished, we'll see what happens.

 

[BradyManny]

Except the original statement was passed off as fact instead of opinion. If it had been the other way around, I wouldn't have asked. And your post is a copout.

And right now I would consider Bird the better player because of what he accomplished. When LeBron's career is finished, we'll see what happens.

Yeah - let's see where Lebron's career ends up before we compare.

As much as I dislike Lebron, what he did this past postseason is worthy of changing the way we look at him. Until then, he had failed whenever it mattered, and at times shied away from the pressure. This year, Olympics included, he sought out the big moment and excelled in it.

I still think the guy is hard to compare to earlier generations since he gets by so much on brute strength and an abuse of the rule book. But that's the way the game is called now. Thirty years ago, he'd get called for a lot more travels and offensive fouls than he is now. But thirty years ago, he'd also be a lot bigger than anyone else out there guarding him.

I'm not big on cross-generational comparisons. The only thing I will say is that if anyone compares Lebron to Jordan before Lebron has a comparable number of rings, they are insane. Jordan would've eaten Lebron alive. King James would've seemed like a child to him.

 

[captain insano]

Except the original statement was passed off as fact instead of opinion. If it had been the other way around, I wouldn't have asked. And your post is a copout.

And right now I would consider Bird the better player because of what he accomplished. When LeBron's career is finished, we'll see what happens.

copout? please. your the one who didnt anwser any of the questions. get over yourself. cue the name calling and insults.

 

[Kontradiction]

copout? please. your the one who didnt anwser any of the questions. get over yourself. cue the name calling and insults.

Why would I make any effort to answer your's in the first place when nobody in here has been capable of answering mine, including you?

so the question is? who was the better leader of men? bird or lebron?

No. That point has already been asserted and the claim has been made. The question is HOW was Bird a better leader of men. What did he do differently than what LeBron just did?

and that question only includes the finals?

The Finals are where leaders and legends are created, so yes.

and can we consider what they did on the court when answering this question?

You already tried to do that and there was no distinction. My (correct) response was that there was no difference as LeBron played all five positions.

if we can consider there play on the court then refer to my previous post you quoted for my response.

And I already responded to that which is why this post is a copout.

if not there is no right or wrong answer to this question. just ones opinion. you could ask who is a better leader of men larry bird or mario chalmers? we know who the better player is.

If it was stated as opinion in the OP, I wouldn't have responded to it. Instead, it was stated as fact. So I'll ask again: What did Bird do that made him a better leader of men in any one of his Finals appearances that LeBron didn't do?

 

[Kontradiction]

Yeah - let's see where Lebron's career ends up before we compare.

As much as I dislike Lebron, what he did this past postseason is worthy of changing the way we look at him. Until then, he had failed whenever it mattered, and at times shied away from the pressure. This year, Olympics included, he sought out the big moment and excelled in it.

I still think the guy is hard to compare to earlier generations since he gets by so much on brute strength and an abuse of the rule book. But that's the way the game is called now. Thirty years ago, he'd get called for a lot more travels and offensive fouls than he is now. But thirty years ago, he'd also be a lot bigger than anyone else out there guarding him.

I'm not big on cross-generational comparisons. The only thing I will say is that if anyone compares Lebron to Jordan before Lebron has a comparable number of rings, they are insane. Jordan would've eaten Lebron alive. King James would've seemed like a child to him.

Again, I'm not trying to compare anybody's games. I'm asking what Bird did differently to be a better "leader of men" as opposed to what LeBron just did? It should be easy. Bird has a much larger sample size to choose from.

 

[BradyManny]

Again, I'm not trying to compare anybody's games. I'm asking what Bird did differently to be a better "leader of men" as opposed to what LeBron just did? It should be easy. Bird has a much larger sample size to choose from.

If we're comparing games, I think you have an argument. But if we're comparing intangibles - that is an easy one. It's not a real comparison. Until this past year, Lebron's production never matched his talent. Even with the NBA as ripe for the taking as it's going to get, Lebron fell short year after year, often in self-destructive fashion. Lebron mailed it in during a playoff series to the Celtics while with the Cavs, and turned his focus to where he would wind up next year before his fate for the current year was sealed. Do you think Bird ever would've done that?

Until he got the title this year, and until he showed some modicum of clutchness, Lebron does not compare to Bird in the intangibles. Bird was all about the basketball. Lebron has been a diva his whole career. It's not his fault. He was made that way.

But you couldn't pick two players that are any more different.

 

[captain insano]

Why would I make any effort to answer your's in the first place when nobody in here has been capable of answering mine, including you?



No. That point has already been asserted and the claim has been made. The question is HOW was Bird a better leader of men. What did he do differently than what LeBron just did?



The Finals are where leaders and legends are created, so yes.



You already tried to do that and there was no distinction. My (correct) response was that there was no difference as LeBron played all five positions.



And I already responded to that which is why this post is a copout.



If it was stated as opinion in the OP, I wouldn't have responded to it. Instead, it was stated as fact. So I'll ask again: What did Bird do that made him a better leader of men in any one of his Finals appearances that LeBron didn't do?

wow you are hilarious. you decide if there was a distinction? you decide what the rules are in responding to your dumb questions? you decide everything apparently. you decide if somebody is objective or not? lol it never ends with you. you claiming to be objective or claiming somebody isn't objective does not make it so. you realize that right? stop playing your games and answer my questions. if you want a response to your moronic question i need to know the boundaries and what is to be considered. that is hardly a cop out. leaders of men are judged by there actions there choices and decisions on and off the court and in there personal lives. how the hell can there play in the games not be considered? and if that's the case then the competition level is fare game and should and will be considered. you say it shouldn't i disagree. for the sake of time and the fatigue of my fingers from typing. i reject all your assumptions and all of your conclusions. i also reject the the entire premise of the question. now i will do what you do and just proclaim you wrong about everything. you have zero objectivity. why? because i said so. see how easy that is. anybody can do that. that's all you ever do. now its time for you to appeal to the other posters for support to marginalize my posts giving you message board st cred. lmao

 

[ausbacker]

Probably is an understatement...

Wrong.

Wrong.

All horribly wrong. And that was from one thread in 2010. Should I even bother to start quoting posts from this past season about how the Heat's missing center was the reason for why they wouldn't win a championship, or is that enough?

And any time you want to back up your faulty assertion about LeBron's leadership in the Finals, feel free.

By the way, did you see LeBron leading Team USA to a gold medal yesterday? Or about what Krzyzewski said about him? But what does that idiot know?

Interesting that you pulled comments from threads before the Heat were pulled together in their Championship winning form.

There's only three things I was wrong about.

1. Bosh is better than I gave him credit for and showed that in the Finals.
2. Mario Chalmers is a fine player. Chalmers improvement coupled with Battier's signing pushed the Heat over the edge.
3. The Heat won the championship, but not in the form as discussed at that point in time.

Once again, pull these phantom quotes Kontra. You're going to have to do better than that. As for the I was wrong, I acknowledged that I was wrong about the Heat winning a championship.

I'm going to bite even though you don't warrant a response. In it's most simplistic notion Bird made the players around him better because of the way he controlled a game with his mentality. LeBron makes players around him better because he's one of the most physically gifted players to ever play in the NBA. FFS it took him nearly 10 years to work out how to use his athleticism to develop a post game.

For me, LeBron is the special forces you send in if you want a shock and awe approach where Bird is the commander pulling the tactical strings.

 

[Kontradiction]

If we're comparing games, I think you have an argument. But if we're comparing intangibles - that is an easy one. It's not a real comparison. Until this past year, Lebron's production never matched his talent. Even with the NBA as ripe for the taking as it's going to get, Lebron fell short year after year, often in self-destructive fashion. Lebron mailed it in during a playoff series to the Celtics while with the Cavs, and turned his focus to where he would wind up next year before his fate for the current year was sealed. Do you think Bird ever would've done that?

Until he got the title this year, and until he showed some modicum of clutchness, Lebron does not compare to Bird in the intangibles. Bird was all about the basketball. Lebron has been a diva his whole career. It's not his fault. He was made that way.

But you couldn't pick two players that are any more different.

In a way, you're also comparing their play on the court here. Bird always had MUCH better teams to work with than what LeBron had to work with in Cleveland. He was literally the only player on the court that the defense had to key on there, as evidenced by just how badly they fell apart after he left. Bird would not be able to be a "leader of men" on that team either, and they never did anything to improve to make LeBron stay. In 2010, Wade even admitted that he and LeBron would take turns dominating to avoid naming a true leader. The result is the city still revolving around Wade and LeBron looking more toward him in the Finals. In 2011, Wade handed the reigns over to LeBron and, with a team that can finally be compared to what Bird had at his disposal in the 80's, LeBron's qualities as a leader shown through.

As for being "all about basketball", I'm not sure how you can say that LeBron isn't. He's played entire seasons in his career and then went on to play in the Olympics for his country. He could have easily rested on his laurels this year...

1. NBA MVP
2. NBA Champion
3. NBA Finals MVP

...but instead he played in the Olympics because he loves basketball. What did he do? Hit the biggest shot of the game to put the USA up for good in the Gold medal round.

 

[Kontradiction]

wow you are hilarious.

I'm sure I am to the simple-minded.

you decide if there was a distinction?

I asked what the distinction was. The only one that's been remotely able to bring that up to me so far has been BradyManny. The rest of you have made it personal because you haven't been able to find one.

you decide what the rules are in responding to your dumb questions? you decide everything apparently.

Let's remember here that I never started this. That was ausbacker...

I am of the firm belief that Bird, Magic and Jordan are all considerably better players than LeBron because they were all leaders of men. LeBron isn't a leader.

...to which I responded that he must have not seen the Finals where LeBron was CLEARLY a leader. After that, the we went down the path of what did Bird do differently than LeBron in any one of his Finals appearances to be more of a "leader of men"? I still haven't gotten a concrete answer on that.

you decide if somebody is objective or not?

Actually, that was you...

but as you acknowledge yourself bird was the superior player. the fact that you would even entertain this silly question just shows your total lack of objectivity when it comes to lebron james.

lol it never ends with you. you claiming to be objective or claiming somebody isn't objective does not make it so.

Stating that you are open to being convinced is the definition of being objective. So, convince me.

you realize that right? stop playing your games and answer my questions.

I literally answered all of your questions in my last post.

if you want a response to your moronic question i need to know the boundaries and what is to be considered.

I've already given you the boundaries. Your response was to compare Bird as a player. That wasn't my question. My question was how he was a better leader of men. I acknowledged that Bird has the upper hand as a player right now, but I also acknowledged that LeBron played all five positions in this playoff run and has often played multiple positions in his career. Can you tell me the last time Bird did that?

that is hardly a cop out.

That particular post was definitely a copout.

leaders of men are judged by there actions there choices and decisions on and off the court and in there personal lives.

In his personal life, LeBron has never been arrested nor has ever made the news for something like what Chad Johson just did.

On the court, he's been a multi-NBA MVP, led what would become one of the worst teams ever after he left to a Finals appearance against the greatest dynasty of the last decade, won the NBA Finals with multiple awe-inspiring performances, won the NBA MVP, and won a gold medal in the same year. By your criteria, LeBron is an excellent leader of men. Better start going by my criteria...

how the hell can there play in the games not be considered? and if that's the case then the competition level is fare game and should and will be considered.

You can consider it if you so wish, but you really don't have much of an argument. Again, I wasn't the one that made the original claim. I'm just responding to it.

you say it shouldn't i disagree. for the sake of time and the fatigue of my fingers from typing. i reject all your assumptions and all of your conclusions.

I assumed that would happen from the get-go.

i also reject the the entire premise of the question.

Then you also reject the original claim that, not only was Bird a better leader of men, but also that LeBron is not a leader of men.

now i will do what you do and just proclaim you wrong about everything. you have zero objectivity.

Ah, but yet I'm the one that is deciding whether or not others are objective. Nice complete contradiction. And I'm not proclaiming anybody wrong. The question was fair. Aside from what BradyManny just brought up, I have had anybody fairly respond to it, or least not a response that could be easily counter argued.

why? because i said so. see how easy that is. anybody can do that

Nice logic too.

that's all you ever do.

If that's what reasonable debate and critical thinking skills are to you, then that seems like a personal issue.

now its time for you to appeal to the other posters for support

Wrong again. I've posted in this forum without any support from anybody in here since 2009.

to marginalize my posts giving you message board st cred. lmao

Remember when you accused me of going personal earlier in the thread? What happened with that?