Drafting a WR early

[Off The Grid]

Brady's a bit of a prima donna in that regard.

Do other QB's get so precious about who's catching their passes?

Have you watched a single Game in your life?

Brady is the LEAST "prima donna" QB in the WORLD.

Your offensive assertion is SEWAGE.

He is extremely demanding of HIMSELF...and of OTHERS.

It's called Commitment To Excellence.

So sorry if that tweaks you out...as it obviously does.

 

[manxman2601]

It's not a tirade, Manx. It's a question. You implied that we haven't drafted, or even tried to draft, quality WRs. The team has used a reasonable amount of draft picks on WRs, as well as FA signings. The majority haven't panned out. And it's fine to say that Brady gets paid well so he should throw the ball to whomever we sign, but it's just not that simple. There are multiple receiving options, and Brady makes the reads. His rapport with, and trust of a receiver are paramount in his decision about whether to target them.

Did you consider Brandon Tate and Taylor Price "quality WR" prospects when we drafted them? Which receiver prospects from the past several drafts did you consider to meet your criteria? I'm interested in learning. I'm guessing the Pats aren't interested in WRs who can't run routes, catch passes or get separation, so I'm not sure that they would go out of their way to draft WRs that don't meet your criteria.

I'm confused.

I'd like an additional receiving threat as much as you. But I'd be more confident about spending significant draft capital on one if I thought there was a decent chance he would stick. And since Deion Branch and David Givens in 2002, the most productive WR that the Pats have drafted has been 7th round pick Julian Edelman in 2009. And that includes Bethel Johnson (45, 2003) PK Sam (164, 2004), Chad Jackson (36, 2006), Brandon Tate (83, 2008) and Taylor Price (89, 2010). That's 10 years. A hell of a long time. We've passed up Anquan Bolden, Greg Jennings and Mike Wallace, not to mention guys like Pierre Garcon, Marques Colston, Antonio Brown and others who have developed into "quality" WRs and who were available at very reasonable cost. So either we're just lousy at picking and/or developing WRs, or our system (or personnel) makes it particularly difficult to find and develop receivers who fit.

I don't see the relevance of previous drafts to how one approaches the WR position this time. Every prospect is different, every year is different. In brief answer to your questions, I wasn't a draft person at the time of Brandon Tate so can't comment. Taylor Price was a raw WR in an option offense with a terrible QB. What he did have was excellent measurables. So here's an idea. Don't draft on measurables, draft on fundamentals, namely the fundamentals applicable to the position. Like being able to catch the ball for example. Marvin Jones had those and he'd be a dream in this offense.

 

[manxman2601]

So you're saying what, exactly?

That his blazing, Olympic speed is a figment of everyone else's imagination?? And that you have this singular insight to the fact that ~ even though he seems to be faster'n everyone else in the League ~ he actually "can't get deep" because of your penetrating analysis, which boils down to "little legs."??

Interesting perspective.

Have you watched a single Game in your life?

Brady is the LEAST "prima donna" QB in the WORLD.

Your offensive assertion is SEWAGE.

He is extremely demanding of HIMSELF...and of OTHERS.

It's called Commitment To Excellence.


So sorry if that tweaks you out...as it obviously does.

Jesus Grid. Does everything have to be explained to you in words of one syllable?

The Little Legs thing was a joke. A response to a previous comment about him being the second shortest player in the league.

As for whether I watch games. Yes I do. I just don't do it through rose tinted glasses like you do. Brady is a professional sportsman and I judge him on that. Unlike you, I don't exalt him. I don't think he can walk on water. I don't think he can turn water into wine. What I do think is that he's one of the best ever QB's, however that fact does not entitle him to be free of criticism.

As for this:

Your offensive assertion is SEWAGE.

You take yourself far too seriously. Who did I offend. You?

 

[ay-yo]

I think people approach the WR position all wrong. Instead of looking at the failures look at the successes. Gronk's success and Moss's success have very little to do with knowledge of the offensive. The reason they were/are so productive is because they are athletic FREAKS. As in they are unique even to the NFL.

When I watch Tavon Austin I see a FREAK. Not only is he incredibly fast but his acceleration is off the charts. Reminds of Spiller in this regard. Now his size is absolutely a question mark but if he had the same speed and acceleration at 6' 200 pounds he'd be on the Jags instead of Blackmon.

 

[mayoclinic]

I don't see the relevance of previous drafts to how one approaches the WR position this time. Every prospect is different, every year is different. In brief answer to your questions, I wasn't a draft person at the time of Brandon Tate so can't comment. Taylor Price was a raw WR in an option offense with a terrible QB. What he did have was excellent measurables. So here's an idea. Don't draft on measurables, draft on fundamentals, namely the fundamentals applicable to the position. Like being able to catch the ball for example. Marvin Jones had those and he'd be a dream in this offense.

Good thoughts. I was definitely on board with taking Marvin Jones last year, and he certainly was within reasonable value (5th round, #166 overall). I think he could have been a very good developmental prospect for us in time. But he's had all of 8 receptions for 91 yards and 0 TDs this year, so it's not exactly like he's setting the NFL on fire as a rookie. I don't think that we should expect immediate impact from any rookie WR, which is part of why I'm not very optimistic about investing a high draft pick in one.

I think that Markus Wheaton is as good a fit as anyone I've seen in a while. I think he's comparable to Greg Jennings in terms of his skill set, and he seems fundamentally sound. I'm not personally a great evaluator of WR fundamentals, but I like your idea. Some mid round guys who come to mind off the top of my head include Aaron Dobson, Quinton Patton and Ryan Swope, but I'll defer to others who are more focused on WRs than I am.

 

[manxman2601]

Good thoughts. I was definitely on board with taking Marvin Jones last year, and he certainly was within reasonable value (5th round, #166 overall). I think he could have been a very good developmental prospect for us in time. But he's had all of 8 receptions for 91 yards and 0 TDs this year, so it's not exactly like he's setting the NFL on fire as a rookie. I don't think that we should expect immediate impact from any rookie WR, which is part of why I'm not very optimistic about investing a high draft pick in one.

I think that Markus Wheaton is as good a fit as anyone I've seen in a while. I think he's comparable to Greg Jennings in terms of his skill set, and he seems fundamentally sound. I'm not personally a great evaluator of WR fundamentals, but I like your idea. Some mid round guys who come to mind off the top of my head include Aaron Dobson, Quinton Patton and Ryan Swope, but I'll defer to others who are more focused on WRs than I am.

Losing a month to injury will do that for a rookie's statistics.

 

[mayoclinic]

I think people approach the WR position all wrong. Instead of looking at the failures look at the successes. Gronk's success and Moss's success have very little to do with knowledge of the offensive. The reason they were/are so productive is because they are athletic FREAKS. As in they are unique even to the NFL.

When I watch Tavon Austin I see a FREAK. Not only is he incredibly fast but his acceleration is off the charts. Reminds of Spiller in this regard. Now his size is absolutely a question mark but if he had the same speed and acceleration at 6' 200 pounds he'd be on the Jags instead of Blackmon.

Austin has been my favorite WR prospect for the Pats for months. And I was a huge fan of Spiller in 2010. I think those kind of guys' skill sets are perfectly made to fit into our offense. But I'm still not keen about using 1st round picks on them (miuch less a top 10 pick, where Spiller ended up going).

 

[mayoclinic]

Losing a month to injury will do that for a rookie's statistics.

Granted. But in any case I don't think you can expect whoever we draft, assuming we draft a WR next April, to come in and be an immediate impact player in 2013. By far the most productive rookie WR we've had in the BB era was Deion Branch, and he had 43 receptions for 489 yards and 2 TDs. Any WR we get is going to probably be the #5 receiving option at best after Gronk, Welker (assuming he's back), Hernandez and Lloyd. And maybe Edelman.

 

[manxman2601]

Granted. But in any case I don't think you can expect whoever we draft, assuming we draft a WR next April, to come in and be an immediate impact player in 2013. By far the most productive rookie WR we've had in the BB era was Deion Branch, and he had 43 receptions for 489 yards and 2 TDs. Any WR we get is going to probably be the #5 receiving option at best after Gronk, Welker (assuming he's back), Hernandez and Lloyd. And maybe Edelman.

I don't disagree and if we only drafted a player to play one year, that would be a problem. But we don't and therefore it isn't.

One can't assume Welker or Edelman are back. And by the end of that rookie season, Lloyd will only have one year left on his contract. Which would leave us with what in terms of receiving options beyond Gronk and Hernandez?

 

[mayoclinic]

I don't disagree and if we only drafted a player to play one year, that would be a problem. But we don't and therefore it isn't.

One can't assume Welker or Edelman are back. And by the end of that rookie season, Lloyd will only have one year left on his contract. Which would leave us with what in terms of receiving options beyond Gronk and Hernandez?

True. Though we don't seem to have a very long leash with guys like Tate or Price, both of whom were 3rd round picks.

 

[kennyb]

OK, back to the issue at hand. Marcus Davis WR VT and Aaron Dobson WR Marshall. Discuss!

Both are 6'+ with Davis being 6'4", former qb, 40 inch vertical leap...supposedly hasn't put it all together yet. Interesting prospect...probably a 5th rounder or so.

 

[manxman2601]

True. Though we don't seem to have a very long leash with guys like Tate or Price, both of whom were 3rd round picks.

Like I said, I'm afraid I don't see the relevance. David Thomas was a 3rd TE with a grand total of 21 catches for us. He doesn't tell us anything about Gronk or Hernandez.

 

[mayoclinic]

OK, back to the issue at hand. Marcus Davis WR VT and Aaron Dobson WR Marshall. Discuss!

Both are 6'+ with Davis being 6'4", former qb, 40 inch vertical leap...supposedly hasn't put it all together yet. Interesting prospect...probably a 5th rounder or so.

I mentioned Dobson in post #25 as someone I thought might be a fit.

Here's a profile from NE Patriots' Draft:

Aaron Dobson NFL Draft Scouting Report | NEPatriotsDraft.com - 2013 NFL Draft

Here's Dobson's Senior Bowl profile from Phil Savage:

http://www.seniorbowl.com/files/SB AARON DOBSON PROFILE.pdf

BTW, Reiss reports that the Pats put in a waiver claim on Armon Binns, a 6'3" 210# WR out of UCincinnati who was waived by the Cincinnati Bengals:

Source: Pats put in claim on WR Binns - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Binns was awarded to the Dolphins, who had higher priority on waiver claims, but at least it shows that the Pats have some interest in that kind of receiver.

Another guy who might be worth considering is Buffalo PS WR Marcus Easley. Easley is a 6'3" 210# receiver with 4.39 speed (at his Pro Day). He was considered a late round pick but Buffalo reached for him in the early 4th round of the 2011 draft (# overall). He wasn't ready, and has been on the PS, where he could be signed to a roster spot by any team. Russ Lande recently mentioned him among AFC East PS players of interest.

AFC East Practice Squad Breakdown | National Football Post

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Brady's a bit of a prima donna in that regard. Do other QB's get so precious about who's catching their passes?

It is a Brady thing or a team thing?

Do you want to see Brady throwing passes to Chad Johnson, who is running the wrong route?

Probably not the best thing for the team, but for some reason Brady seems to understand this sooner than the coaches.

 

[mayoclinic]

Like I said, I'm afraid I don't see the relevance. David Thomas was a 3rd TE with a grand total of 21 catches for us. He doesn't tell us anything about Gronk or Hernandez.

And if a borderline 1st round talent at WR fell to the 4th round like Hernandez did, at TE or a top 20 talent at WR fell to the mid 2nd like Gronk did at TE, I hope we'd be all over it. I have no problem with that at all.

Again, I'm not against drafting WRs. Especially when the value is there. That's part of my point - there is usually value to be had later on. But I hope if we do draft one, we'll be patient enough to give him a chance to develop.

 

[I.M. Fletcher]

And if a borderline 1st round talent at WR fell to the 4th round like Hernandez did, at TE or a top 20 talent at WR fell to the mid 2nd like Gronk did at TE, I hope we'd be all over it. I have no problem with that at all.

Again, I'm not against drafting WRs. Especially when the value is there. That's part of my point - there is usually value to be had later on. But I hope if we do draft one, we'll be patient enough to give him a chance to develop.

What do you think about lattimore? He will fall to the second because of the degree of his injury, maybe even the third.

I know you you were referring more to receiving options, but lattimore is a top 5 talent we would typically never have a chance at.

 

[mayoclinic]

What do you think about lattimore? He will fall to the second because of the degree of his injury, maybe even the third.

I know you you were referring more to receiving options, but lattimore is a top 5 talent we would typically never have a chance at.

If he falls to day 3 and we get some extra picks he's worth grabbing and stashing on IR for 2013.

He will take at least a full year to heal, but he has the potential to recover and be very good. He's a hard worker who recovered quickly form his first injury.

By 2014 Stevan Ridley will be in a contract year and the Pats may have to decide where to put their money. Having a guy like Lattimore coming up may give them some low cost options.

It's a long shot, but if the cards fell right, it's something to consider.

 

[mayoclinic]

Da'Rick Rogers is declaring for the draft, per CBS Sports:

Da'Rick Rogers Heading to NFL - CBSSports

Very talented. Somewhat mercurial. Maybe he'll push Markus Wheaton down a few spots to us.

 

[I.M. Fletcher]

If he falls to day 3 and we get some extra picks he's worth grabbing and stashing on IR for 2013.

He will take at least a full year to heal, but he has the potential to recover and be very good. He's a hard worker who recovered quickly form his first injury.

By 2014 Stevan Ridley will be in a contract year and the Pats may have to decide where to put their money. Having a guy like Lattimore coming up may give them some low cost options.

It's a long shot, but if the cards fell right, it's something to consider.

That's my mindset as well. With the redshirt year, it puts healthy right when Ridley will be looking to re-up. Also, I don't know if they have enough carries next year to split among all the guys they will have anyways.

I think he will be special, and like you said, if he slips its an option. Bill loves trading into future years, and with lattimore needing a year, it would be a similar cause and effect.

 

[fightingirish595]

OK, back to the issue at hand. Marcus Davis WR VT and Aaron Dobson WR Marshall. Discuss!

Both are 6'+ with Davis being 6'4", former qb, 40 inch vertical leap...supposedly hasn't put it all together yet. Interesting prospect...probably a 5th rounder or so.

big fan of dobson. i would like to add i also like tavon austin. tavares king is underrated i think and i think he is going to be a very good pro reciever. also kenny stills could be on my football team anyday