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Draft-Quality over Quanity

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by R_T26, Mar 11, 2009.

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  1. R_T26

    R_T26 Banned

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    Ive recently seen people say that the pats should trade down from their first pick or 1st second pick, for more picks in later rounds, due to either salary cap or just cause to stock more picks. Im sorry but i have to disagree. First off 2nd round pick money does not kill your cap and third with the recent trend of our drafts we dont need more players to hide on IR or cut. Basically the last few years has shown the pats have got virtually nothing from the later rounds. I would like to see them trade 1 pick for next year and use the other picks to move up in different rounds.


    2008

    Jerod Mayo - STUD
    Terrence Wheatley-Playing ok until IR
    Shawn Crable-IR (possibly fake IR to avoid cutting him)
    Kevin O'Connell -?
    Jonathan Wilhite -OK
    Matthew Slater-Special Teamer
    Bo Ruud -IR

    2007

    Brandon Meriweather-Lead the team in INT's last year, will only get better
    Kareem Brown-Cut
    Clint Oldenburg-Cut
    Justin Rogers-Cut
    Mike Richardson-IR/IR Probably get Cut
    Justise Hairston-Cut
    Corey Hilliard-Cut
    Oscar Lua-Cut
    Mike Elgin-Cut

    Laurence Maroney -Jury is Out, think he will breakout this year
    Chad Jackson -Cut
    David Thomas -Non Factor (dissapointed in him, thought he would be better)
    Garrett Mills -Cut
    Stephen Gostkowski -STUD
    Ryan O'Callaghan -Backup
    Jeremy Mincey -Cut
    Dan Stevenson-Cut
    Le Kevin Smith-Backup
    Willie Andrews -Cut
  2. fair catch fryar

    fair catch fryar Rookie

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    Wasn't Bruschi a ST when he first came on with the Pats?
  3. upstater1

    upstater1 Rookie

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    This is a deep draft. The Patriots don't have the depth they used to. And given the record of missing on players so much in the mid-rounds, I'd say: use all your picks. The chances are excellent this year, given the high quality of the draft and the Patriots roster, that anyone who is any good at all will be on the 53, no matter how many picks we have. The Patriots have not shown that they can maximize value in the 2nd through 5th round. They've done well in the first round and the last two rounds.
  4. bobbybigdrum

    bobbybigdrum Rookie

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    I know what your saying, but the question of value comes into play. If when pick # 23 rolls around BB feels that he can get the same value in the second round as he can at pick #23, why not set ourselves up for next year. That way maybe we can make a trade with a team that may yield us a higher pick than #23 next year (such as the SF trade which we ultimately aquired Mayo).
  5. NEGoldenAge

    NEGoldenAge Banned

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    Good fourth post.
  6. JMarr

    JMarr Rookie

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    Good points. I don't see the Pats holding onto all their picks this year, nor do I see much point in stockpiling picks in 2010, regardless of a potential uncapped year. We need to win THIS YEAR, period. BB throws convential wisdom out window and goes for broke this year imo.

    If you have to trade up using a couple of first day picks in order to get an available pass rushing stud, cant-miss DB or OT, or difference-making WR, you do it in a heartbeat.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2009
  7. amazinPats

    amazinPats Rookie

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    I agree with the idea of moving up as well, unless a situation as bobbybigdrum mentions occurs.
  8. patsfaninpittsburgh

    patsfaninpittsburgh Banned

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    The Pats have moved up and traded picks during the BB era. As booby points out:

    VALUE, VALUE, VALUE

    I see nothing wrong with the Pats philosophy. Get the guy you want. If you don't want any of the dudes, trade away.

    Who says we can't win it all this year and years down the road?
  9. JMarr

    JMarr Rookie

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    With our current roster and a draft consisting of developmental players, I put our odds of winning the SB this year at way less than 50/50.
  10. Brettlax3434

    Brettlax3434 Rookie

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    We have the best roster in the NFL and are clearly the favorites to win the bowl.
  11. amazinPats

    amazinPats Rookie

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    You might be correct about the draft (I don't know enough to say,) but you are definitely wrong about our current roster. With a few more moves still to make, we are stacked!
  12. unoriginal

    unoriginal Rookie

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    Less than 50% against the field? You're right, that will not do.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2009
  13. Clonamery

    Clonamery PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Maybe he meant in absolute terms: we either will or we won't.
  14. Synovia

    Synovia Rookie

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    Completely agree, and thats why the draft is so funny.
    Bad teams need lots of decent to good players. Good teams need great players, or they wont make the roster. In my oppinion, teams at the top of the league should be looking to trade up, because thats the only way they're going to get talent that will "push them over the top" whereas bad teams should be looking for cost effective good players.
  15. bakes781

    bakes781 Rookie

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    right on!

    There's guys within the top 20 like Malcolm Jenkins who could slide, but otherwise the guys I like at 23 are considered better value at 47 by others and vice versa.
  16. Synovia

    Synovia Rookie

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    The most certain a single NFL game gets is about 65%. Thats right...the worst team plays the best, and you can only predict the result about 65% of the time.


    Of course the Patriots odds of winning the superbowl are less than 50%. Theres 32 friggen teams.


    If you take a team with a first round bye, their chances of MAKING the superbowl is only .65*.65 = 42% at most.
  17. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm not sure I agree with your premise. The way the Pats are rolling in picks this year, the posters who want them to trade away day-1 picks are almost all looking to move some of the value to next year. That's a very different argument.

    As for moving down for value...they're already in the premium value part of this draft, three times. :D There is a very rich 2nd tier of Patriots-type players this year, and I love the value in the 20-50 range.
  18. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    What???? Where did you see this? Got a link? Everything I've read recently is about combining and trading up, or trading a pick for a better 2010 pick, to REDUCE the number of picks, not increase them.
  19. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    Hard to argue with anyone who will go out on limb like that :D
  20. CanadianPat'sFan

    CanadianPat'sFan Rookie

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    I like NO Saints as a team who would be willing to trade down to #23 and get additional picks as they have 1 first day pick. Their position at 14 is a great spot in the draft to move up to IMO.
  21. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It is not common for us to trade down to get extra late picks.
    What we do is trade down to get more resources to later trade up (or into next year) with.
    I can't remember many times where we traded a 2nd for a 3rd and 6th then used both.

    BB uses the picks to get to the parts of the draft he wants to be in.
    Usually he will trade down when the player(s) he wants will still be available later. Thereby he gets his player plus the other picks. He will trade up when he sees a run coming on players he has targetted, or more than expected are taken sooner than expected.

    I don't think its correct to say that the plan would be to trade down just to get extra 6th and 7ths who will not make the team, thats never been the objective.
  22. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Good teams draft to STAY GOOD not to expect a rookie to 'get them over the top'.
    The best organizations draft for the future, not today. The best team in the NFL has good starters, but at least a dozen guys will make the team that a 3rd-5th rounder should be able to beat out, all things equal.
    That is life with a salary cap. No matter how good you are at building the bottom or your roster 'draftable' players almost always are talented enough to make your team, although many just aren't NFL ready by the middle to end of camp.
  23. JMarr

    JMarr Rookie

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    Sorry to disagree. We're stacked in terms of quantity but not exactly quality. If we want to win remove alot of doubt about how far we can go, we're missing at least one key piece still, and I have a feeling that BB still has a big move or two in the works either through FA, the draft or a trade. Right now the Steelers are sitting there licking their chops.

    It makes sense to bring in an upgrade at OT if possible since it's critical to keep Brady pretty much untouched. And the LB corps we have is probably the worst we've had since BB took over. That's not acceptable, nor is bringing in hit or miss college prospects to develop while you rely on Guyton and Woods as starting LBs.
  24. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    You, like many others who nay say the Pats drafting in later rounds, love to leave out things that need to be considered when looking at the previous 3 drafts. Like, for instance, that the Pats had 60 something players signed before the draft in 2007. So, the likelihood of a lot of the 2 day picks making the team was slim. People also ignore that 4 of the 8 second day picks were comp picks that the Pats couldn't trade. And people forget that the Pats DID try and trade the other picks but no one wanted to trade for them.
  25. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    HUH? With the additions of Lewis, Springs, Bodden, Hodel, and Baker, not to mention the return of Sanders, Hochstein, Yates and Tully Banta-Cain and the growth of guys like Mayo, Redd, Guyton, Wheatley, Wilhite, and Meriweather, this team should do extremely well.

    As for the draft, they aren't ALL developmental plays. There are players who can come in and contribute immediately. I'm not sure why you think otherwise.

    Free agency JUST STARTED about 2 weeks ago.. there is still a little under 6 months for this team to truly take shap. If you are this cynical now, why do you even bother following the team since there is no way that they can do right.
  26. JMarr

    JMarr Rookie

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    What I was trying to say is that we we don't need a lot of mid-round developmental players at this point. We need an immediate high impact guy (especially at LB, and maybe OT) and may need to trade up to get one if we can't do it through FA.
  27. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    First off, it must be really nice to post your knee jerk reactions without actually providing specifics. Like naming the particular position instead of throwing out a generalization.

    1) Which OT position needs the upgrade?
    1a) Whom are you proposing to sign to replace the person in question 1.
    1b) If you are considering a FA OT, where do you propose the Pats get the money to pay said free agent?

    2) The LB situation of the 2005 roster was signicantly worse than the one they have now. Who do you propose they get to improve the situation?
    2a) Where do you propose they get the money to pay for that person?

    3) What is this one KEY piece that the Pats are missing? What happens if that person gets injured? Are you really saying that ONE injury ends the teams SB hopes? There is only one person that applies to and its Brady..

    4) Do you understand that ALL draft picks are hit and miss? ALL of them. From round 1 to round 7.

    5) Do you understand that the times when the Pats had their best past rush was when they could send any of their 4 LBs? Last year, they had a leash on Mayo and didn't rush him. And, though they tried to bring Bruschi, it didn't work because he doesn't have the speed or strength to get by the guards. Vrabel was playing hurt most, if not all, of the season.
  28. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    First off, your thinking is way too short term. WAY too short term. You are thinking the "here and now" and not the bigger picture, which includes the next 4 years.

    The Pats have 4 picks in the first 60. Those guys are going to be immediate, impact players.

    As for your generalizations, you need to be more specific. After you've done that, go do some research on the players available in the draft. I think that you'll find that there is ONE true 3-4 OLB. That is Clint Simtin. The problem is that many people see him sliding INSIDE to SILB. Of the ILBs, Maualuga is considered, by many, to no longer be a 3 down LBer. And many question his coverage ability. Clay Matthews is intriguing because he played all the LB positions at USC. Brian Cushing is more of a WILB than a SILB. And many think he doesn't have the fram to put on more weight. James Laurinitus is a binky of some people, but he likes to free lance too much. On a team like the Patriots where every player has a job and a specific area of the field to cover, Laurinitus would cause big plays to occur.

    I'm sorry, but your explanations, thus far, have been futile and much to generalized, imho. And I don't believe you've done enough homework on this team and the 2009 draft.
  29. JMarr

    JMarr Rookie

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    1. RT--I didn't say this was priority #1 but if Andre Smith, Oher or someone else BB feels can step in almost right away slides far enough, then you consider it.

    2. I disagree and LB is priority #1. I'd prefer someone better than Guyton/Brushchi at SILB and we have nothing but JAGs OLB's on the other side of AD. ILB: Maualuga works for me. OLB: Everette Brown, or trade the farm, including Maroney, Watson, Guyton, and/or Wheatley + draft picks to our good friend Pioli if Curry is sitting at #3 and maybe move AD inside. Or do the same for a guy like Suggs or Dansby.

    3. Pass rusher. If he gets injured, it is what it is.

    4. Some first round picks are much safer than others.:eek:

    5. That's why I've been hyping Mauluaga. Better pass rush from his spot, plus monster run stuffer, freeing Mayo to do more blitzing.

    I simply feel we need to think more short-term this year and are carrying more picks than we need.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2009
  30. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This is a curious statement. It suggests that the Patriots have a weak roster for 2009, but are positively loaded for 2010 & 11. That's an awfully tough case to make.

    Or perhaps what you're saying that the Pats should say "to heck with the future" and focus solely on 2009? :confused:

    If you're talking about concentrating value in the top 100 picks of the draft, they've already done that. They have a whopping six of the first 100 picks. Sure, they could move around, move up, etc. But they've set themselves up to pick up a ton of long-term impact talent in a very deep draft. That will be critically important...NEXT YEAR.
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