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Don't Blame The Refs..Let's Not Go To That Level

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by SCPatBoy, Jan 14, 2006.

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  1. SCPatBoy

    SCPatBoy Rookie

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    I mean come on guys. Faulk doesn't fumble and they don't have a chance to get the PI call. Yes It was a BAd call, but tonight Denver did to us what we usually do to other teams. Force the Opposing teams to make mistakes and capitalize. Denver did that to us. Faulk, and Hobbs fumbled, Brown...fumbled it happened. I do question why Brown was even returning Punts as Dwight seemed a little crisper at it, but let's not be Colt's Fans and ***** about this and that> We lost the game because we made mistakes and Denver didn't!!
  2. LiquidBlue

    LiquidBlue Rookie

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    True class...I think. I just read the title.

    EDT:

    Yea...true class. :D
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2006
  3. desi-patsfan

    desi-patsfan Rookie

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    i agree. The refs didnt take the game from us. We lost it. 5 turnovers to 1. You cant do that against a good team and you most definatly cant do it in the playoffs. THe broncos just played better than us today.
  4. Johnny Mac

    Johnny Mac Rookie

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    Certainly not blaming the refs, but the game might've been a whole lot different if they don't hand them that TD.
  5. SCPatBoy

    SCPatBoy Rookie

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    It was a Bad Call, but it was over we were in the 3rd quarter with the ball on the % yard Line with a chance to go up 13 to 10 and instead a false start penalty, A BRady interception going back to our 1 yard line and the rest is history, with a few more turnovers committed by the Pats for good measure. I'm sorry the Refs didn't cost us this game!
  6. Patti37

    Patti37 Rookie

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    If the refs are making bad calls, you need to play mistake free football. Five turnovers cost the game, not the refs.

    Despite the bad calls, the Pats were still in the game until the Bailey interception.
  7. stcjones

    stcjones Rookie

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    I would respectfully .......


    Disagree........the HORRIBLE officiating is not the SOLE reason why we lost this game.......The primary reason we lost is that we SHOT OURSELVES IN THE FOOT on every possible occasion. That having been said....when officiating is that terribly biased, one sided, and just plain flat out wrong...it certainly helped the Broncs win.
  8. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    The refs sucked, no doubt. But Faulk's fumble was THE PLAY. And after that, Brady's INT. The worst ref call doesn't happen without Faulk's fumble. I love Faulk but he just can't be trusted. Tiki learned a new grip and stopped fumbling, I wish Kevin could.
  9. buile

    buile PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    > when officiating is that terribly biased, one sided, and just plain flat out wrong...

    It's just part of the game. Every team, especially World Champions have to overcome it.

    I agree with SCPatBoy. We were beat by Turnovers, not that Interference call.
  10. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Not blaming the refs for the loss. I am blaming the refs for being totally incompetent and they should be blamed for that.
  11. devour

    devour Rookie

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    We need to lose with dignity. Give the Denver Broncos credit. They forced 3 TOs and was opportunistic on the other 2 TOs. The better team won last night, no question about it. Sure the refs sucked, but if we were good enough, we would've overcome the officiating.
  12. Michael

    Michael Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    But, you don't get to pretend it had nothing to do with it either. 5 turnovers and 2 very bad calls that was to Denver's benefit (would have been 3 if BB didn't challenge the Plummer pick) is what killed any momentum and control the Pats had up to that first very late flag on a penalty not one expert local or national agrees with. As a matter of fact the consensus was Offensive PI. Imagine if he was not interfered with and picked the ball in the end zone. What Pats team would have come out in the second half after that? Quite possibly being up 10-0. The first fumble was a mistake, but that bogus PI call that put Denver on the 1 is what took the wind out of the Pats sails. I think the following turnovers were a direct result of trying to make big plays while playing catch up. So yes I do not discount that very bogus late flag by the official further away then an official standing right there.
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2006
  13. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The refs made three horrible calls in the first half
    1) the no interception call (overturned)
    1) the pass interference call (7 points)
    2) the missed illegal procedure on the long field goal (3 points)
    ------------------------------
    But that was in the first half. I do believe that ther refs favored the pats in the second half. I thought that there could have been at least two pass interference calls that weren't called (against Hawkins and Samuel).

    The interception wasn't the refs fault, but even there if they call the fumble going out through the end zone, there would have been a 7 point difference.

    -----------

    Bottom line, the difference was the interception and Troy's fumble.
  14. Richter

    Richter Rookie

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    Forced 3 turnovers? One great pick by Champ Bailey, a pick on a desperation heave that should have resulted in pass interference, one flat out muffed punt, one dropped ball in traffic by Faulk and one ball squirting out by Hobbs when he gets hit by a kicker. Sounds more like 1.5, 2 tops that they forced. Way too many of the turnovers were flat out concentration lapses, not some great play by the Denver defense.
  15. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    I've seen Champ's fumble 20+ times. It did cross the plane of the end zone and then out of bounds. Should have been Patriots ball on their 20 and no points for the Bronco's.
  16. Michael

    Michael Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    It was a touchback and if was called correctly would have given the Pats the ball back at their twenty. They end up scoring as a result of that and Denver doesn't get another easy 7 that's a 14 point difference. Which makes the score tied at that point.
  17. Fanfrom1960

    Fanfrom1960 Rookie

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    That's one area where I thing baseball has its act together better than football, i.e., officiating. Baseball has salaried professional umpires, whereas football has guys paid by the game. So, you get weekend warrior refs that are "doctors, lawyers or indian chiefs" the rest of the week. The other thing is that Denver is out there by itself in the NFL, geographically speaking, so I have to wonder if you do get mostly locals (homers). In the East, potential refs can easily drive to Foxborough, NYC, Philly, or several other NFL cities from a lot of the region. Fer chrissakes, when Phil Simms and the Indy Star board immediately start in with the "BS call", well, it was. Pats would have overcome that call if they didn't turn it over so much, but who needs it, and the fact that it was sooooo friggin' late.
  18. State

    State Rookie

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    That blown call gave the Broncos an easy score. That's big.

    Come on, guys. The blown call even raised the dander of fair-minded CBS analyst Phil Simms. It's a call that should have never been made--unless for offensive interference.

    Probably the Broncos get stopped by the stud Patriots defense and only kick a field goal. It's 3-3. Much better than 3-7.

    It was almost as bad as Ray "Sugar Bear" Hamilton's roughing the passer penalty in 1976.

    Like that, this awful call changed the complexion of the game. Remember, easy scores, which we gave plenty to the Broncos, really gets the home crowd going.

    The ref doesn't make that call we don't lose by nearly as much. In fact, an argument can be made that putting the Broncos in catch-u mode would have forced them into plays that would have increased the likelihood of their making mistakes. After all, we scored first.

    How many times have the Broncos been behind at home? This game was ours. We lost to an inferior team because they didn't make mistakes (except for the obvious interception by Asante Samuel--What the heck were the refs thinking on that play?) and we made five. Five.

    Also, they got help by bad calls and non-calls.

    Anyone else see Champ Bailey's obvious facemask on Andre' Davis on the 51-yard gainer? Or the false start on the field goal that wasn't called?

    The refs tried their best--they just didn't have a very good game, either.

    Next week the Broncos get their arse handed to them by the Colts (or Steelers). They. Are. Not. Very. Good.

    That game turned my stomach. That late flag did too. It turned a hostile environment into more of one. Ultimate blame lies with the turnovers, but that call was a bigger deal than the fumble, as bad as that was.
  19. dhamz

    dhamz Rookie

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    It is ridiculous that the NFL and the networks who spend all that $ producing games do not have a camera on both sides of the goaline that can give us a definitive view of whether Bailey's fumble went over the goalline or not.

    I think logically that a guy who has one foot inside the 1 (his foot was about to hit the pylon) and gets hit and fumbles forward probably fumbled through the end zone but who knows. There was no camera angle that showed it so there was no way to reverse the call. In the same way, they could never have changed it if it was ruled a touchback.

    Because they don't have cameras permanently set up on the goaline the critical call of a game was left to officials none of whom had a great angle because thay are running full speed.
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2006
  20. State

    State Rookie

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    What was the camera on the blimp doing on Bailey's touchback?

    I have this bad feeling that we'll see covincing footage of Champ Bailey's fumble being a touchback too late. Like today or tomorrow. From the freakin' dirigible. Why can't the blimp be useful for something other than stadium shots?

    I agree on the previous post. The technology is still imperfect. That was probably a touchback. It's too bad the footage didn't include an overhead shot that would have made it certain one way or other.
  21. devour

    devour Rookie

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    So you're not giving Denver credit for the fumbles by Hobbs and Faulk ? Let's look at each turnover:

    1. Faulk's fumle - the ball did not come out by itself, Courtney Brown's hit had a lot to do with it.

    2. Hobb's fumble - Sauerbrun's hit on the arm & ball knocked it out, it did not squirt out by accident.

    3. Brady's int - great play by Bailey, bad play by Brady. Nothing to discuss

    4. Brown's muffed punt return - this is the only real unforced TO as far as I'm concerned

    5. Brady's 2nd int - desperate throw into triple coverage. I chalked it up to an unforced turnover because of circumstances. Did not see any interference on this play

    Look, I'm as disappointed and bitter as everyone here about the loss, but to say Denver's D & special teams didn't earn that victory is ridiculous.
  22. broncoted

    broncoted Banned

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    The refs made ONE horrible call last night. The PI call. The others you guys are complaining about were nit picky. I can count several instances of holding against the Broncos that weren't called if I wanted to whine the same way.
  23. broncoted

    broncoted Banned

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    Thanks you're a class act....and I'll say this a million times, the Patriots are the envy of the entire league. Every team's fans want their team to accomplish want the Patriots have accomplished the last three years. In fact, we're jealous.

    A quote from Richard Seymour "''You can't say we did it to ourselves, when you say we beat ourselves you're not giving the other team enough credit. We did make a lot of uncharacteristic mistakes, but in a way they forced them. As a competitive player and as a man you have to accept it. They did it to us. I'm disappointed. Very disappointed. But if you can't accept a loss, what kind of person are you?"

    Hats off to the Patriots who have my ultimate respect.
  24. chunkypony

    chunkypony Rookie

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    On Brady's second INT, Andre Davis was clearly thrown to the ground before the ball got to that area. I think that's PI, especially if Asante got called for it for what he "did".

    My roomate was saying last night how he always says, "to win a championship, you have to have everything go your way." The entire game didnt for the patriots last night. The bounces of the balls all seemed to go away from us, and all the calls went the other way (He refered to the Champ Bailey fumble as the "reverse tuck-rule", as in that is what would have happened if the tuck rule went the other way, the fumble out of the endzone was as close to a turning point/last chance we were going to get). I just think nothing went our way, and the patriots players deserve most of the blame; they didnt hold on to the ball, and they threw interceptions. Im not saying we would have won if the referees made different calls, I just think that most people are going to use the referees to blame because most of us aren't sure how to deal with a loss in the Brady/Belichick playoff era.
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2006
  25. dante828

    dante828 Rookie

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    Dead on!

    I made this exact point in another post. Bailey made a great play on a bad Brady pass, but does Brady make that pass if the score is 7-6, or 6-0, which it very well could have been had the pass interference call not been made and the offensive offside on the Bronco's was called? I am not entirely sure he does. The refs also had missed the 15 yard face mask and called a borderline call the Bronco's way (on the Watson play), it was clear the refs were being swayed by the hometown crowd. As for holding penalties, give me a break, it is rarely called on both sides, and if you can point out fifty instances of Pats holding, I am sure I can point to fifty instances of Bronco holding as well. But offensive offside and face masks are always called, and in this game they were not at key moments and that is all on the refs. The Bronco's play well when they are up, and the refs played a significant role in putting them there.

    With that said, shame on the Pats for not overcoming this. Brady should never have tried to force a play. Shame on Troy Brown for fumbling, shame on Vinitierri for not making that field goal. Usually the Pats get over these things, so I give Denver credit for constantly keeping the pressure on and forcing Patriot mistakes (and yes, even Brown's turnover was forced, since it was the pressure of being behind that rattled Brown's concentration) and capitalizing on those mistakes every time. I wish the Bronco's and their fans all the luck in the next couple of games. Still, bad officiating played a significant role in this game, and I for one am not just going to ignore it and not complain about it.
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2006
  26. broncoted

    broncoted Banned

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    Bailey didn't facemask him, he grabbed the upper part of his helmet, but no mask.
  27. dante828

    dante828 Rookie

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    He had the face mask and pulled the helmet up, he may have had the upper part of the helmet later, but he definitely had the face mask at some point. To be fair, no ref really had an angle to see that, so I am not sure it was a bad call but just a sneaky play by Bailey.
  28. ukilledkenny

    ukilledkenny Rookie

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    what goes around comes around.

    well now you guys now what its like to be on the wrong end of questionable calls. in years past that bailey fumble would have been called a touchback on the field and there would have been no visual evidence to overturn that. and than it would be you guys saying there is no way to prove it was the wrong call while denver fans cried about it. sometimes things go your way and sometimes they dont. the last few years alot of things have gone your way but this year they didnt it happens to everyone.

    and i also have to say that even with all the questionable calls the nfl will not need to go and revise the rulebook to justify any of the officials calls like they did in 2001.
  29. dante828

    dante828 Rookie

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    I agree for the most part

    However the Tuck Rule was not reversed, it still exists, and was judged correctly at the time. I am not saying that the Pats haven't benefitted from some questionable calls in the past, and it does suck to be on the receiving end. But the two key calls (the pass interference and the offensive offsides) were not questionable, they were clearly mistakes and they changed the face of the game. And as I have continued to say, those plays only hurt if Denver capitalizes on them, which they did (just as the tuck rule decision only hurt Oakland because the Pats were able to capitalize on the call by outplaying the Raiders the rest of the game). In a totally non-sarcastic way, good for Denver, that is what good teams do.
  30. Johnny Mac

    Johnny Mac Rookie

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    [​IMG]
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