Don Banks: Behind the rhetoric...what a fair deal in NFL labor debate will look like

[Rob0729]

Re: Don Banks: Behind the rhetoric...what a fair deal in NFL labor debate will look l

Aren't you making too big a deal of Ralph Wilson making $1 million less in yearly fees for the name rights? $1 million is going to make or break the NFL's salary structure. The Bills are maxed out in Buffalo. They have done the best they could do. And they are marketing the team to the entire region (10 million people live within 1 hour 15 minutes of Buffalo). The problem is that they don't have the huge corporate sponsors to drive up the price of luxury suites. And, 7.5 million of those 10 million people count toward the Canadian TV package and not the greater Buffalo area (which encompasses Rochester, Niagara Fall, So. Ontario and Hamilton).

There are only a few huge corporations HQ'd in Buffalo, HSBC USA, Delaware North, Rich Foods, American Axle, Univera and HealthNow, and even some sports apparel that may be interested in name rights, like New Era hats. But that's pretty paltry compared to most areas. Only Rich or New Era seem viable for such a purpose, and Rich is a food producer conglomerate that advertises brands, not the corporation.

You are arguing both sides of the argument here. You are saying the Bills are not going to move after Wilson dies because they make more than enough revenue, but then defending them that they don't make enough revenue because there isn't enough revenue opportunities in the region. So you are arguing both for and against my point depending on which post you respond to.

 

[upstater1]

Re: Don Banks: Behind the rhetoric...what a fair deal in NFL labor debate will look l

You are arguing both sides of the argument here. You are saying the Bills are not going to move after Wilson dies because they make more than enough revenue, but then defending them that they don't make enough revenue because there isn't enough revenue opportunities in the region. So you are arguing both for and against my point depending on which post you respond to.

Huh? I didn't say they make more than enough revenue. I said they are not in the bottom 10 of revenue makers. And yes there aren't enough companies in the region to buy their lux suites. They're just better supported by the blue collar fans than at least 10 other franchises.

I also said that according to local sources who should know, there's a plan in place for Ralph to sell locally.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Don Banks: Behind the rhetoric...what a fair deal in NFL labor debate will look l

Huh? I didn't say they make more than enough revenue. I said they are not in the bottom 10 of revenue makers. And yes there aren't enough companies in the region to buy their lux suites. They're just better supported by the blue collar fans than at least 10 other franchises.

I also said that according to local sources who should know, there's a plan in place for Ralph to sell locally.

And that local source knows this local buyer has the support of the majority of franchises throughout the league. A local source (every media outlet in the country) in St. Louis said that Rush Limbaugh was going to buy the Rams and the rest of the league put an end to that.

And you were wrong, they are in the bottom ten of revenue makers. Forbes have them ranked 26th in terms of revenue makers which makes them in the bottom seven. Of the teams ranked below them, many are either looking to potentially relocate (Jacksonville) or trying to build new stadiums to generate more revenue opportunitis (49ers, Falcons, Vikings, Raiders) and one was recently sold (Rams). Only the Lions earn less and seem content about it, but the Ford family seem rather apathetic to the team.

NFL Team Valuations - Forbes.com

Sorry, this "plan" doesn't pass the BS test for the reasons I laid out in previous posts. If Wilson had a plan in place, he would have either sold by now or in the process of selling. Besides, if Wilson dies before he sells, who knows if his daughter will sell to this local person if she is getting significantly larger bids from other parties and the league want these other parties to get it. It isn't all up to Wilson and he knows the best way for him to control who buys the team is to do so before he dies.

The facts are quite clear that the revenue opportunities in Buffalo are minimal and that is why the Bills are near the bottom of revenue. Every other team below them are trying to make grande guestures to increase their revenue and so will the Bills' owner after Wilson. Most likely it will be a move to a place with a more affluent population and a greater business base.

Please name the 10 other franchises who make less revenue because Forbes only can name six and there isn't all that much difference in the Bills revenues and the ones behind them.

 

[upstater1]

Re: Don Banks: Behind the rhetoric...what a fair deal in NFL labor debate will look l

Wilson has long been on record saying that he will never move the team. Goodell wants to get a team internationally and Mexico City and Toronto are the two most likely candidates because of population size and proximaty to the United States. Golisano has been accusing the NFL of trying to move the Bills to Toronto since 2000.

Goodell has local ties. We'll see. I drive on Goodell Street practically everyday, and then there's the Schumer thing. I don't think Golisano is the guy local people are referring to.

And from what I have been hearing, it is a likely possibility. Buffalo is always mentioned as a possible LA team.

By anyone credible?

In 2009, the Bills were 26th in revenue (that is total revenue) out of 32 teams. They only made $14 million more than the lowest revenue team, but $125 million less than the highest revenue team. Their operating profit ranks them higher because Wilson doesn't have a lot of debt and currently has a sweetheart lease with the county (that could dry up with a new owner). Their ticket prices are the lowest in the league.


Yeah, I just saw that when I looked it up. I found it on Forbes that they were reporting the Bills were now 26th, and that came out this preseason. I remember from last year, however, that were not in the bottom 10, and if you look at the Forbes report, they are down 12% year over year. Not sure why. If you figure they made $255 million in the prior year (as opposed to $228 million last year) then you'll see why I said they were not in the bottom 10.

I call BS. First, if that was the case, he would have sold the team since if he died tomorrow, his daughter is going to be in a bind to sell the team quickly to pay the inheritance tax since Wilson isn't that liquid. If Wilson had a buyer in place who would keep the team in Buffalo, he would be selling just for that reason. Second, any sale has to be approved by the league. That take time and no guarantees that the rest of the league is on board with keeping a team in Buffalo.

I'm not getting you. The daughter (why daughter? His wife is still alive...) is going to be in a bind regardless, no matter where the team is located. everyone knows he's better off selling now. He's not refusing to do it because he wants the team in Buffalo. It's the exact opposite. He literally has his fingers all over the team. He wants to remain owner as long as he lives. Otherwise, people have already stepped up to buy it from him and keep it here. His holding onto the team increases the chances it will be sold elsewhere BECAUSE the executor will sell to the highest bidder. What difference does it make?

If Jacobs buys the team, there is no guarantee he will keep it in Buffalo. He buys teams for business investments and already shown he doesn't mind owning teams in other cities other than Buffalo. He doesn't own the Buffalo Bruins.

I'm not saying Jacobs is going to buy the team. I was pointing out that he's a local guy who is invested in Buffalo in a way that Ralph Wilson is not. He lives here, is a major philanthropist, is the Chairman of the Board of the U of Buffalo, and he's very active in UB affairs.

So if they build a new stadium in Toronto with the ability to tailgate, Bills fans in Toronto would still rather drive 1 1/2 hours? Would they rather drive 20 hours to see the San Antonio Bills?


According to the ones I talked to, they prefer going to Buffalo. I was next to a 20 something guy from Ottawa who is a season-ticket holder at the last game. But, these are Bills fans of course. I'm sure there's a whole other Canadian fanbase that wouldn't care. Besides, you think they're going to build a new stadium outside the city? Don't forget who else plays there, the Argonauts for instance.

As for NY politics, you are talking about Buffalo not NYC. The Jets and Giants are close to NYC and anyone in NY will tell you that NYC and Long Island hold all the cards in state politics and upstate NY has little power. Sorta like Western Mass in this state.

I can't fathom your argument. I'm talking about tens of millions in state income tax revenue. What are you talking about? Schumer has been on top of this with Goodell. Also, have you been paying attention to NY politics lately? Do you know why the Senate flipped to the GOP?

As for the currency conversion, it hasn't hurt the NHL and the Canadian and U.S. dollar have been pretty much close to equal for a while now with the Canadian dollar actually having more value at times.

Conversion is equal to 3% income anyway you cut it. Those are the costs of transferring money.

Western NY is a big area and much of it doesn't include the Bills' fan base. Western NY consists of 12 counties and 8,973 square miles. Erie County (where Buffalo resides) 12.9% of the population are below the poverty line. I think Ontario County is the the richest county in Western NY and Canandaigua is about 2 hours from Orchard Park. You aren't going to get a lot of season ticket holders who travel two hours to the game. You'll get some, but it is a small percentage of your base.

It doesn't sound like you know the area very well. The entirety of WNY is Bills country. All of it. They are rabid. Canandaigua? Seriously? That's small little town. The richest parts of the area are Williamsville, Clarence and Pittsford. People travel 2 hours and more to games each week, just like they do to Patriots games. 20% of the season ticket base is from Ontario.

There has never been legitimate talks about LA either way. There is always a franchise fee for a new team, but there has never been a relocation fee. It would be a tough sell if the league really wants a team in LA. What if San Deigo moves, are they going to charge them $100 million to move 50 miles?

I thought there was a history of relocation fees. Frontiere paid $29 million to move the Rams to that super huge market of St. Louis in the 1980s. Now factor in that it's 3 decades later, the value of franchises has increased, AND that LA is bigger St. Louis.

 

[upstater1]

Re: Don Banks: Behind the rhetoric...what a fair deal in NFL labor debate will look l

And that local source knows this local buyer has the support of the majority of franchises throughout the league. A local source (every media outlet in the country) in St. Louis said that Rush Limbaugh was going to buy the Rams and the rest of the league put an end to that.

And you were wrong, they are in the bottom ten of revenue makers. Forbes have them ranked 26th in terms of revenue makers which makes them in the bottom seven. Of the teams ranked below them, many are either looking to potentially relocate (Jacksonville) or trying to build new stadiums to generate more revenue opportunitis (49ers, Falcons, Vikings, Raiders) and one was recently sold (Rams). Only the Lions earn less and seem content about it, but the Ford family seem rather apathetic to the team.

NFL Team Valuations - Forbes.com

Sorry, this "plan" doesn't pass the BS test for the reasons I laid out in previous posts. If Wilson had a plan in place, he would have either sold by now or in the process of selling. Besides, if Wilson dies before he sells, who knows if his daughter will sell to this local person if she is getting significantly larger bids from other parties and the league want these other parties to get it. It isn't all up to Wilson and he knows the best way for him to control who buys the team is to do so before he dies.

The facts are quite clear that the revenue opportunities in Buffalo are minimal and that is why the Bills are near the bottom of revenue. Every other team below them are trying to make grande guestures to increase their revenue and so will the Bills' owner after Wilson. Most likely it will be a move to a place with a more affluent population and a greater business base.

Please name the 10 other franchises who make less revenue because Forbes only can name six and there isn't all that much difference in the Bills revenues and the ones behind them.

I agree that it makes more sense for Wilson to sell now, but when a local person worth mid-high 9 figure range tells people that Ralph has a plan, people take heed.

If you look at the Forbes article, you might have noticed that in one column, they showed year over year numbers. Buffalo was way way down to 26, 12% loss from the previous year. If you back out the numbers you'd see why I wrote what I wrote. My info was a year older.

As I said, WNY is a richer area than the City of Buffalo proper. Buffalo is an old incorporated town. It is not a modern Indianapolis or Jax that sprawls. It's like Boston in that you can get across town pretty quickly by foot. Buffalo has 250k people. The first ring suburbs have 1 million people. So when people say the town is poor, we're talking poverty on the order of Detroit, poor city, but very rich burbs. Overall, however, we are still talking about a higher standard of living than the national average.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Don Banks: Behind the rhetoric...what a fair deal in NFL labor debate will look l

I agree that it makes more sense for Wilson to sell now, but when a local person worth mid-high 9 figure range tells people that Ralph has a plan, people take heed.

If you look at the Forbes article, you might have noticed that in one column, they showed year over year numbers. Buffalo was way way down to 26, 12% loss from the previous year. If you back out the numbers you'd see why I wrote what I wrote. My info was a year older.

As I said, WNY is a richer area than the City of Buffalo proper. Buffalo is an old incorporated town. It is not a modern Indianapolis or Jax that sprawls. It's like Boston in that you can get across town pretty quickly by foot. Buffalo has 250k people. The first ring suburbs have 1 million people. So when people say the town is poor, we're talking poverty on the order of Detroit, poor city, but very rich burbs. Overall, however, we are still talking about a higher standard of living than the national average.

First, your information is two years old. Forbes haven't done their valuations for 2010 yet. My information is for 2009. It could be even worse now. Their debt seems to be growing while their revenues stay stagnant.

The Erie County is constantly losing people and the county isn't as prosperous as you claim. Here are income stats from Wikipedia (I know not the best sources):

The median income for a household in the county was $38,567, and the median income for a family was $49,490. Males had a median income of $38,703 versus $26,510 for females. The per capita income for the county was $20,357. About 9.20% of families and 12.20% of the population were below the poverty line, including 17.30% of those under age 18 and 7.80% of those age 65 or over.

Erie County, New York - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[upstater1]

Re: Don Banks: Behind the rhetoric...what a fair deal in NFL labor debate will look l

First, your information is two years old. Forbes haven't done their valuations for 2010 yet. My information is for 2009. It could be even worse now. Their debt seems to be growing while their revenues stay stagnant.

No, actually, their revenues fell. A lot.

The Erie County is constantly losing people and the county isn't as prosperous as you claim. Here are income stats from Wikipedia (I know not the best sources):

Erie County, New York - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I got my info from here: Erie County, New York (NY) - Household income, demographics, local cities, towns and villages

This site gets its info from the census, and it looks at medians. Maybe yours is the average. Maybe average looks at so many individuals who are on welfare (it should be no surprise that in a state with the most generous welfare/medicaid programs in the country, we have a lot of poor people). I've lived all over the country, and I'd say this area is pretty affluent than most by comparison. I grew up in New Haven, Ct, and this area reminds me a lot of Southern Ct. Lots of poverty in the city, lots of affluence outside.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Don Banks: Behind the rhetoric...what a fair deal in NFL labor debate will look l

Goodell has local ties. We'll see. I drive on Goodell Street practically everyday, and then there's the Schumer thing. I don't think Golisano is the guy local people are referring to.

Goodell will do what ever he thinks is best for the league no matter how stupid it may be or people disagree. If he thinks that is best to move the Bills he will. Schumer is a U.S. Senator and really doesn't have the power to stop the Bills. Golisano has been the guy most Bills fans have pinned their hopes on keeping the team in Buffalo.

By anyone credible?

Virtually every news organization in the country. You mentioned Schumer. Schumer had to call Ralph Wilson last year to get assurances (which he released a statement in July) to get assurances he would keep the team in Buffalo because of all the talk.

Yeah, I just saw that when I looked it up. I found it on Forbes that they were reporting the Bills were now 26th, and that came out this preseason. I remember from last year, however, that were not in the bottom 10, and if you look at the Forbes report, they are down 12% year over year. Not sure why. If you figure they made $255 million in the prior year (as opposed to $228 million last year) then you'll see why I said they were not in the bottom 10.

The most disturbing trend for the bills is that their debt is increasing while their revenues stay stagnant. Their operating income took a huge hit. They didn't sign any big contracts in 2009 that I know of to show that it could just be a single year debt paying out big contracts. In fact, they have been letting players walk rather than pay them.

I'm not getting you. The daughter (why daughter? His wife is still alive...) is going to be in a bind regardless, no matter where the team is located. everyone knows he's better off selling now. He's not refusing to do it because he wants the team in Buffalo. It's the exact opposite. He literally has his fingers all over the team. He wants to remain owner as long as he lives. Otherwise, people have already stepped up to buy it from him and keep it here. His holding onto the team increases the chances it will be sold elsewhere BECAUSE the executor will sell to the highest bidder. What difference does it make?

It is generally known or at least understood that his daughter will maintain control of the trust after his death. It would make sense to pass most of it to his wife, but that doesn't mean that she will maintain control.

I'm not saying Jacobs is going to buy the team. I was pointing out that he's a local guy who is invested in Buffalo in a way that Ralph Wilson is not. He lives here, is a major philanthropist, is the Chairman of the Board of the U of Buffalo, and he's very active in UB affairs.

But he has also shown that he is more interested in money than championships when it comes to sports franchises and if he can make more money elsewhere, it wouldn't be exactly shocking to see him move the team.

According to the ones I talked to, they prefer going to Buffalo. I was next to a 20 something guy from Ottawa who is a season-ticket holder at the last game. But, these are Bills fans of course. I'm sure there's a whole other Canadian fanbase that wouldn't care. Besides, you think they're going to build a new stadium outside the city? Don't forget who else plays there, the Argonauts for instance.

If Goodell is serious about moving Internationally, he will probably get the the league to authorize a low interest loan (they have done it with other teams) to get the stadium built. They will also offer Toronto a Super Bowl if they build a dome. There will be plenty of Bills fans who live between Buffalo and Toronto who will follow the team.

I can't fathom your argument. I'm talking about tens of millions in state income tax revenue. What are you talking about? Schumer has been on top of this with Goodell. Also, have you been paying attention to NY politics lately? Do you know why the Senate flipped to the GOP?

First, the tax revenue generated by the Bills is a drop in the bucket in the grande scheme of things. Second, Schumer is an U.S. Senator and has not direct control of NY tax or any other policies. He really has very little say in the Bills moving unless Goodell needs his favor with a bill that goes through U.S. Congress that might affect the NFL.

Conversion is equal to 3% income anyway you cut it. Those are the costs of transferring money.

First, that is assuming the player doesn't decide to live in Canada full time including the offseason. Second, that is assuming the league doesn't implement a policy within the CBA to accomodate the issues with transfer of currency. Besides, there are plenty of players who live/play in states where the income tax is incrediby high. Many Jets and Giants play in NJ and still pay NYC tax because they want to live in NYC.

It doesn't sound like you know the area very well. The entirety of WNY is Bills country. All of it. They are rabid. Canandaigua? Seriously? That's small little town. The richest parts of the area are Williamsville, Clarence and Pittsford. People travel 2 hours and more to games each week, just like they do to Patriots games. 20% of the season ticket base is from Ontario.

First, it isn't knowing about the area. It is knowing about the economics. Most of a teams' revenue is based on tickets, concessions, and other stadium related activities. The largest piece is television rights, but that stays the same no matter where they play. So someone who lives two hours out will probably not contribute much to the revenue of the team. What percentage is traveling 2 hours each way to get to a game each week no matter the team? Five percent at most? Yes, people are willing to travel 4 hours back and forth to attend a game, but they are a small minority of the fans who attend the game.

Second, Canadaigua is just a town I know in Western NY. But you call them a small town and then name smaller town as example? Canadaigua has 11,264 people. Williamsville has 5,573.

I thought there was a history of relocation fees. Frontiere paid $29 million to move the Rams to that super huge market of St. Louis in the 1980s. Now factor in that it's 3 decades later, the value of franchises has increased, AND that LA is bigger St. Louis.

I'm sorry. I was wrong. There were relocation fees. It was paid sporatically. The Ravens paid the league $29 million to move. So it will be around $100 million now. But it could be waived. It has happened like when the Raiders moved back to Oakland.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Don Banks: Behind the rhetoric...what a fair deal in NFL labor debate will look l

I got my info from here: Erie County, New York (NY) - Household income, demographics, local cities, towns and villages

This site gets its info from the census, and it looks at medians. Maybe yours is the average. Maybe average looks at so many individuals who are on welfare (it should be no surprise that in a state with the most generous welfare/medicaid programs in the country, we have a lot of poor people). I've lived all over the country, and I'd say this area is pretty affluent than most by comparison. I grew up in New Haven, Ct, and this area reminds me a lot of Southern Ct. Lots of poverty in the city, lots of affluence outside.

Well, it doesn't really matter either way since both data is wrong looking at it. Both sources use the 2000 Census data and the demographics of most of the country has radically changed over the last ten years.

 

[upstater1]

Re: Don Banks: Behind the rhetoric...what a fair deal in NFL labor debate will look l

Goodell will do what ever he thinks is best for the league no matter how stupid it may be or people disagree. If he thinks that is best to move the Bills he will. Schumer is a U.S. Senator and really doesn't have the power to stop the Bills.

A very powerful Senator. In NY state, where the NFL is located. Currently, no team other than the Bills plays in NYS.

Golisano has been the guy most Bills fans have pinned their hopes on keeping the team in Buffalo.

Where are you getting your info from? He has a very bad rep in this town. People would rather have Gregg Williams in charge than him. Look, I know Golisano expressed interest in buying the Bills, but the local reaction of fans was, heaven forbid.

Virtually every news organization in the country. You mentioned Schumer. Schumer had to call Ralph Wilson last year to get assurances (which he released a statement in July) to get assurances he would keep the team in Buffalo because of all the talk.

The news sources said the LA people contacted 9 franchises about moving. Schumer asked Wilson and Wilson said no one in the organization ever got a phone call about it. I think I'd believe him on this one instead of the news sources.

The most disturbing trend for the bills is that their debt is increasing while their revenues stay stagnant. Their operating income took a huge hit. They didn't sign any big contracts in 2009 that I know of to show that it could just be a single year debt paying out big contracts. In fact, they have been letting players walk rather than pay them.

Revenues dropped according to that Forbes article you linked to.

It is generally known or at least understood that his daughter will maintain control of the trust after his death. It would make sense to pass most of it to his wife, but that doesn't mean that she will maintain control.

A news article on this very subject was recently printed, and it stated that the succession plans are a total mystery to even close confidants.

But he has also shown that he is more interested in money than championships when it comes to sports franchises and if he can make more money elsewhere, it wouldn't be exactly shocking to see him move the team.

I agree about Jacobs and the Bruins, but like I said, Jacobs is part of the community here. He has donated multimillion dollar buildings to non-profits and given major money. It would be quite odd to see him forego all his leadership positions and all the other things he's done in order to turn his name to mud--especially since his entire life has been about cleansing his rep as a younger man (i.e. Look into how the guy became rich in the first place, pretty seedy stuff).

If Goodell is serious about moving Internationally, he will probably get the the league to authorize a low interest loan (they have done it with other teams) to get the stadium built. They will also offer Toronto a Super Bowl if they build a dome. There will be plenty of Bills fans who live between Buffalo and Toronto who will follow the team.

Bills fans from Buffalo will not be following th Bills if they move. I can guarantee you that.

First, the tax revenue generated by the Bills is a drop in the bucket in the grande scheme of things. Second, Schumer is an U.S. Senator and has not direct control of NY tax or any other policies. He really has very little say in the Bills moving unless Goodell needs his favor with a bill that goes through U.S. Congress that might affect the NFL.

Are you kidding me? US Senators don't care about major businesses in their states? That's what you're saying? We're talking about hundreds of millions in revenues here. And more than half of it goes to salaries, which are instantly taxable at very high rates.

First, that is assuming the player doesn't decide to live in Canada full time including the offseason. Second, that is assuming the league doesn't implement a policy within the CBA to accomodate the issues with transfer of currency. Besides, there are plenty of players who live/play in states where the income tax is incrediby high. Many Jets and Giants play in NJ and still pay NYC tax because they want to live in NYC.

There's incredibly high, and then 15% higher. The bills are already in "high" territory. I'm talking about 156% higher. Assuming the NFL players don't become Canadian citizens, they'll have to repatriate that money eventually. The NBA, NHL and MLB have nothing in their agreements about these taxation/currency issues.

First, it isn't knowing about the area. It is knowing about the economics. Most of a teams' revenue is based on tickets, concessions, and other stadium related activities. The largest piece is television rights, but that stays the same no matter where they play. So someone who lives two hours out will probably not contribute much to the revenue of the team. What percentage is traveling 2 hours each way to get to a game each week no matter the team? Five percent at most? Yes, people are willing to travel 4 hours back and forth to attend a game, but they are a small minority of the fans who attend the game.

I honestly think you wrong on this. I saw a breakdown of even the Patriots fanbase, and you'd be surprised that only half of the season ticket holders live 1 hour of the stadium. Connecticut has 20% of the ticketholders. Ever drive Route 6? It's not very pleasant, especially in winter. Huge other chunks come from Maine and Vermont and Western Mass. Buffalo is similar. Most of the population that comes from Canada is located 1 1/2 hours away, but they also have to deal with border crossings, and that's 20% right there. Rochester is only an hour away, but other than Rochester, there really is not other big city in WNY that might come to the games. Jamestown is dnky by comparison.

Second, Canadaigua is just a town I know in Western NY. But you call them a small town and then name smaller town as example? Canadaigua has 11,264 people. Williamsville has 5,573.


Sigh. I was naming a rich Buffalo burb. Besides, Williamsville isn't even a town. It's located in Amherst, it's part of Amherst, a town of 120,000 people. I was just naming the richest areas around this region.

I'm sorry. I was wrong. There were relocation fees. It was paid sporatically. The Ravens paid the league $29 million to move. So it will be around $100 million now. But it could be waived. It has happened like when the Raiders moved back to Oakland.

I thought they went to court with the Raiders. They certainly made the NFL's craplist.