Doesn't Re-Signing Mike Lowell hurt the Yankees?

[JoeSixPat]

It's so obvious but I don't think its really been pointed out

A-Rod's not going back to NYC... now NY needs a third basemen.

The only option for them is really Mike Lowell - the other infielders available just aren't even close, and/or have very limited experience at third base.

So while Lowell's price is going to be a lot higher than any of us would like (4 years $60 million total won't shock anyone... indeed that's what the Yankees are reportedly willing to spend) isn't there an added benefit in re-signing him that we make ourselves stronger and the Yankees weaker?

Is that worth an extra year and the $15 million per season price tag? Maybe - maybe not - but it certainly helps.

It's kindof like the Dice-K signing last offseason - yes they paid a lot but they got a good pitcher (who hopefully will adjust next season like Beckett did this season) and they weakened the Yankees.

Maybe this has been talked about adnaseum but I figured I'd throw it out for discussion.

 

[AStack75]

I think Lowell is as good as gone and that A-Rod will be the Sox 3rd baseman next season. I can't stand A-Rod, but I'd certainly like him in a Sox uniform.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I think Lowell is as good as gone and that A-Rod will be the Sox 3rd baseman next season. I can't stand A-Rod, but I'd certainly like him in a Sox uniform.

If Lowell doesn't re-sign here he's going to the Yankees, making it doubly in our interest to sign him, leaving the Yanks very weak at the corner position.

 

[Foley]

Just like how signing Johnny Damon was a great idea because it hurt Boston just as much as it helped NYY?

If they want to give Lowell a 4/$60M contract then I'm all for it. Hes only a serious offensive force in Fenway (.276BA, .767OPS on the road this year), so he wouldn't be that significant an addition if he played half his games in Yankee Stadium (.278BA, .785OPS career). Giving a 4 year contract to someone whose numbers are greatly inflated by his home park, and will be 34 to start next season is the exact type of thing that I love seeing NYY do.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Just like how signing Johnny Damon was a great idea because it hurt Boston just as much as it helped NYY?

I don't want to blow your comparison out of the water too harshly, but I think that there might have been more than just one other outfielder on the free agent market that season.

In the case of experienced thirdbasemen with proven bats, there's A-Rod and Lowell - and no one else...

And A-Rod's not playing for the Yankees.

Dice-K's the better comparison... with no top tier starting pitching available the Sox recognized that they help themselves and hurt the Yankees - getting an added benefit - by outbidding them.

I think everyone recognizes that if one wants A-Rod or Lowell they are going to overpay - its just a question of overpaying at $15 million a year at 4 years or overpaying $30 million a year for 10 years.

Lowell is cheaper and it leaves the Yanks without a good 3rd baseman.

 

[Foley]

I don't want to blow your comparison out of the water too harshly, but I think that there might have been more than just one other outfielder on the free agent market that season.

Actually I can think of another free agent 3B with an identical career BA, OBP, and a marginally lower SLG than Lowell. He'd be a whole lot cheaper too.

But again, a 34 year old with mediocre road numbers is the exact type of guy that I want the Yankees to sign. Let someone else overpay so you can collect draft picks.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

Just like how signing Johnny Damon was a great idea because it hurt Boston just as much as it helped NYY?

I came into this thread to say exactly that. If the Sox think that signing Lowell to a four year deal is a bad idea then they should let NY make that mistake (and take NY's first round pick) rather than match it. Could you imagine if they still had Damon signed for two more years? Ellsbury would still be blocked in Pawtucket.

Boston can't be preoccupied with the Yankees. They need to compete with the entire American League, and simply make whatever moves make them the best team possible.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Actually I can think of another free agent 3B with an identical career BA, OBP, and a marginally lower SLG than Lowell. He'd be a whole lot cheaper too.

But again, a 34 year old with mediocre road numbers is the exact type of guy that I want the Yankees to sign. Let someone else overpay so you can collect draft picks.

I have a feeling there's very few people out there who think that the Yankees are going to be weaker BECAUSE they sign Lowell... and I don't think strategically one would actually be HOPING the Yankees sign him.

Overpaying someone means nothing to the Yankees - it wouldn't be the first time they've done that, and while it takes a chunk out of Steinbrenner's wallet, they seem to view it as the cost of doing business, and eventually will move on and find someone else if he doesn't pan out in year 3 and 4.

The Sox of course aren't too far behind, having signed a few stinkers to expensive contracts themselves... but does anyone think the amount we're still paying on Renteria's contract hindered the Red Sox's ability to put a championship caliber team on the field?

 

[Foley]

I have a feeling there's very few people out there who think that the Yankees are going to be weaker BECAUSE they sign Lowell... and I don't think strategically one would actually be HOPING the Yankees sign him.

Overpaying someone means nothing to the Yankees - it wouldn't be the first time they've done that, and while it takes a chunk out of Steinbrenner's wallet, they seem to view it as the cost of doing business, and eventually will move on and find someone else if he doesn't pan out in year 3 and 4.

The Sox of course aren't too far behind, having signed a few stinkers to expensive contracts themselves... but does anyone think the amount we're still paying on Renteria's contract hindered the Red Sox's ability to put a championship caliber team on the field?

They may have the resources to overpay, but that doesn't mean that overpaying means nothing to them. I'm sure they have regrets about signing Damon and giving Mussina a two year extension, and I'm sure they'd love to get rid of Giambi or Pavano but both are immovable. If they keep on signing guys to long contracts after they have a career year than they'll be left with a bunch of expensive albatrosses preventing them from trading for a Miguel Cabrera or blocking prospects.

My point is, like you said, Lowell is going to be overpaid, and I'd rather the Red Sox not be the team to overpay him. If that means he goes to the Yankees, so be it. I don't hope he goes there, but I certainly wouldn't complain for the reasons I've said.

 

[IcyPatriot]

As much as I can't stand A-Rod ... it seems very clear to me. Not re-signing Lowell @ $15 million and no Schilling and trading Crisp for a prospect comes to $30 million ... hard to ignore.

Also...all this talk of A-Rod at shortstop is ridiculous...

and no ... no A-rod at 3rd either.

A-Rod will be the new 1st baseman for the Red Sox.

He has the size and the numbers the position is lacking.

All my opinion of course.

 

[JoeSixPat]

They may have the resources to overpay, but that doesn't mean that overpaying means nothing to them. I'm sure they have regrets about signing Damon and giving Mussina a two year extension, and I'm sure they'd love to get rid of Giambi or Pavano but both are immovable. If they keep on signing guys to long contracts after they have a career year than they'll be left with a bunch of expensive albatrosses preventing them from trading for a Miguel Cabrera or blocking prospects.

My point is, like you said, Lowell is going to be overpaid, and I'd rather the Red Sox not be the team to overpay him. If that means he goes to the Yankees, so be it. I don't hope he goes there, but I certainly wouldn't complain for the reasons I've said.

How many games did Pavano start this season? Did he have a lot of losses hurting the team?

He sure didn't help any but that's not the point - the Yankees have the means to just pay someone else - assuming there's someone else out there to sign... but the Red Sox have something to say about that.

Pavano is one of the main reasons why the Yankees were so interested in Dice-K showing that they won't let a bad contract scare them away from another more expensive one - and the Red Sox countered, making themselves stronger and the Yankees weaker.

No one's suggesting the Sox make themselves weaker just to make the Yankees weaker... but when we're talking about Lowell we're talking overpaying by about $2 million a season for 1 additional year (you can debate 1 or 2)

Does overpaying a player and potentially paying him beyond his productive years hurt the ownership's pocket book? Sure... and its happened to the Sox too - but that's not stopped them from being every bit as active in the free agent market as any other team out there.

But I think you're overstating how much overpaying "hurts" a team.

How many strikeouts did Edgar Renteria have on the Sox this season? Did his contract prevent us from fielding THE most competitive team in baseball, with nearly the most expensive payroll?

Of course not

 

[Foley]

How many games did Pavano start this season? Did he have a lot of losses hurting the team?

He sure didn't help any but that's not the point - the Yankees have the means to just pay someone else - assuming there's someone else out there to sign... but the Red Sox have something to say about that.

They have the means, but they can't sign someone if they already have another player occupying that position.

Like with Damon. Hes not going anywhere, which means that either Cabrera goes to the minors (despite being better than Damon) or Matsui becomes their full time DH making Giambi a full time 1B. No Damon means that they have Matsui in the OF, Giambi can occupy DH and not be a huge defensive liability, and then find a better 1B. The issue here has nothing to do with money, it just has to do with space and the inability to bring in someone better because they have a bad contract.

How many strikeouts did Edgar Renteria have on the Sox this season? Did his contract prevent us from fielding THE most competitive team in baseball, with nearly the most expensive payroll?

Of course not

I disagree with the idea that Renteria was a bad signing... but anyway. Just because they were able to get rid of one guy doesn't mean they can do it with everyone. If Lugo and Drew continue to struggle and never live up to expectations that will be bad for the team. They can't trade them away because no one will want them, and then they can't bring in better players to replace them. A team needs to be smart in who they sign and don't sign for a lot of reasons other than money and payroll.

Jed Lowrie is a very good prospect and if not for Lugo would probably be in the running to compete for the SS job in 2008. If Lugo doesn't improve and remains untradeable, then Lowrie is blocked for the next 3 years and will likely either rot in the minors or end up traded.

 

[AStack75]

A-Rod will be the new 1st baseman for the Red Sox.

He has the size and the numbers the position is lacking.

All my opinion of course.

So where would we put Ortiz when we play NL teams?

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

They have the means, but they can't sign someone if they already have another player occupying that position.

Like with Damon. Hes not going anywhere, which means that either Cabrera goes to the minors (despite being better than Damon) or Matsui becomes their full time DH making Giambi a full time 1B. No Damon means that they have Matsui in the OF, Giambi can occupy DH and not be a huge defensive liability, and then find a better 1B. The issue here has nothing to do with money, it just has to do with space and the inability to bring in someone better because they have a bad contract.

Exactly. The Yankees have only so many roster spots. If they sign Lowell for four years then they won't be able to go after Cabrera (as a 3rd baseman, at least) if he hits the market in two years. We've seen time and time again how Giambi has prevented the Yankees from acquring other DHs, and Damon currently prevents them from adding an outfielder.

The Sox were able to trade away Renteria because he wasn't old and washed up. The thinking is that, in two years, Lowell could be (we thought he was two years ago). I guess they can always just cut a guy and eat his contract, but teams are hesitant to do so.

 

[JoeSixPat]

They have the means, but they can't sign someone if they already have another player occupying that position.

Like with Damon. Hes not going anywhere, which means that either Cabrera goes to the minors (despite being better than Damon) or Matsui becomes their full time DH making Giambi a full time 1B. No Damon means that they have Matsui in the OF, Giambi can occupy DH and not be a huge defensive liability, and then find a better 1B.

Riiigght.. Melky Cabrera is destined for the minors because of Johnny Damon...

I'm not fully up on the Yankees lineup but didn't the guy play a full season this year... and last year too?

I agree there's guys on major league rosters because they have guaranteed contracts - but if a guy is nowhere near his potential you can almost always move him by paying a portion of his salary - heck that's what the Rangers had to do with A-Rod!

And Damon at a .270 BA isn't all that different from where he was with the Sox in 2002/2003 - its not like he's at the Mendoza line and really hurting the Yankees even if it were an either/or with Cabrera - which its not.

And wasn't the biggest concern about Damon his health? Seeing as he's played in more than 140 games each season so far that's not a big issue, is it?

And weren't people questioning the money that we spent in the OF in lieu of Damon just this past season, remarking that we might have been better off keeping him instead of letting him go to the Yankees?

Sorry - maybe you have a valid point with some other player on some other team (hey - it might be JD Drew) but I don't think Damon and the Yankees are making your point for you.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Exactly. The Yankees have only so many roster spots. If they sign Lowell for four years then they won't be able to go after Cabrera (as a 3rd baseman, at least) if he hits the market in two years. We've seen time and time again how Giambi has prevented the Yankees from acquring other DHs, and Damon currently prevents them from adding an outfielder.

The Sox were able to trade away Renteria because he wasn't old and washed up. The thinking is that, in two years, Lowell could be (we thought he was two years ago). I guess they can always just cut a guy and eat his contract, but teams are hesitant to do so.

I think its pretty much accepted that there needs to be overlap for skill positions like Third Base and Catcher in terms of new blood - with a 3 or even 4 year contract the Sox still need to be thinking of the future, especially if they can find a replacement in the system. Overlap with players is a good thing - not a bad thing, if that can be done.

Heck - people were questioning the signing of Varitek to a long contract... and yet now the Sox may be forced to extend him because they don't have anyone waiting in the wings!

If Lowell still has a hot bat but can't field as well towards the end of his contract, there are still some options at first or DH (I'd prefer to have a Papi clone there but still) - and if he's considered deadwood with someone waiting in the wings the Sox can pay most of his salary and move him off to another team.

There's a lot of bad, low budget teams out there that would happily accept another team paying a salary for them, in the hopes that they come out of their funk.

But the bottom line here is that for the next two years at least, most would agree, signing Lowell maintains our strength at 3rd - and keeps the only other premier 3rd baseman free agent away from the Yankees, weakening them at that position.

As far as years 3 & 4 - we'll have to see, but in the worst case scenario, there's nothing that money can't solve in terms of freeing up a position for a better player if need be.

The reality is that baseball has guaranteed contracts and that there's no salary cap - this hurts most teams, but in the case of the Sox and Yankees, money is really no object.

 

[Foley]

I agree there's guys on major league rosters because they have guaranteed contracts - but if a guy is nowhere near his potential you can almost always move him by paying a portion of his salary - heck that's what the Rangers had to do with A-Rod!

ARod was living up to potential in Texas. A team can obviously trade someone if they're playing well, but not if they are playing poorly. The Yankees have tried to trade Giambi for the past few years and no other team would even consider it, regardless of how much money the Yankees tack on.

And Damon at a .270 BA isn't all that different from where he was with the Sox in 2002/2003 - its not like he's at the Mendoza line and really hurting the Yankees even if it were an either/or with Cabrera - which its not.

And wasn't the biggest concern about Damon his health? Seeing as he's played in more than 140 games each season so far that's not a big issue, is it?

Hes not hitting as well as they expected which was the point. He can't play CF anymore, which is what he was signed on to play. Signing Damon was a mistake. They have a better option in CF, and his presence allows for roster inflexibility.

And he started only 76 games in the field this season because he was an injury risk. So yeah, it is still a pretty big problem.

 

[JoeSixPat]

ARod was living up to potential in Texas. A team can obviously trade someone if they're playing well, but not if they are playing poorly.

So Edgar Renteria was playing well when the Red Sox traded him?

The Yankees have tried to trade Giambi for the past few years and no other team would even consider it, regardless of how much money the Yankees tack on.

Can you provide a link showing that the Yankees are offering to pay Giambi's salary? I can't find one.

Hes not hitting as well as they expected which was the point. He can't play CF anymore, which is what he was signed on to play. Signing Damon was a mistake. They have a better option in CF, and his presence allows for roster inflexibility.

And he started only 76 games in the field this season because he was an injury risk. So yeah, it is still a pretty big problem.

So wait - Damon's a problem because he can't start - nor do you apparently want him to... but you're complaining that Damon can't start?

Oh wait - now I remember - Damon is preventing Melky Cabrera from playing -so how many more games do you think they can get Melky in for, given the fact that he played in 150 games last year and had 545 at bats... (and about the same stats as Damon)


If Mike Lowell is playing as "bad" as Damon in the last year of his contract, I can deal with that - especially if it means keeping us strong for the next two years and keeping the Yankess - desparate for good third base help with no where else to turn - weak at that position.

The funny thing is I heard a station out of NY while driving in CT today talking about how taking Lowell away from Boston is a slam dunk for them because it strengthens them at a position of need and weakens Boston.

If the Sox are interested in either Lowell or A-Rod, its a no brainer that Lowell is the "lesser of two evils" of overpaying. I could deal with them taking neither and being somewhat weat defensively in the corner, as well as the offensive loss of production - but that also means the Yankees get stronger by signing Lowell - and I don't like that.

The point I hear some radio talking heads making that A-Rod makes more sense because even when he's 38-40 he'll be a good DH (how do they know?) and he'll be going after Bond's home run record (yeah, and he'll also be implicated in a similar steroids allegation) and that will help "get people into the seats".

Ummm - yeah, I'm sure if they don't sign A-Rod there's going to be a ton of empty seats at Fenway.... that's been a REAL big problem lately.

 

[skspikex2]

As much as I can't stand A-Rod ... it seems very clear to me. Not re-signing Lowell @ $15 million and no Schilling and trading Crisp for a prospect comes to $30 million ... hard to ignore.

Also...all this talk of A-Rod at shortstop is ridiculous...

and no ... no A-rod at 3rd either.

A-Rod will be the new 1st baseman for the Red Sox.

He has the size and the numbers the position is lacking.

All my opinion of course.

Youk is far better at first. I like Lowell, but I will UNDERSTAND if Red Sox will not sign him for more than 4+ years at 15 mill a year. On the other hand, I will not tolerate a 10 years on AROD, come on, he will be at 41 at 3B? Also, 30 mill is way too much.
Trade Crisp for reliever, put Moss as an optional bench on 1st basemen/OF since we lost Hinske to FA.

 

[scout]

Youk is far better at first. I like Lowell, but I will UNDERSTAND if Red Sox will not sign him for more than 4+ years at 15 mill a year. On the other hand, I will not tolerate a 10 years on AROD, come on, he will be at 41 at 3B? Also, 30 mill is way too much.
Trade Crisp for reliever, put Moss as an optional bench on 1st basemen/OF since we lost Hinske to FA.

I just hate it when anyone brings up 1st base and the players name is not Youk. What does this guy have to do to make believers out of them. Zero errors at first base. How long before this guy starts bringing home the gold gloves? What batter did the Cleveland staff not want to pitch to. Even when they got him out, he fouled off so many balls he demoralized them. If the Sox can't re-sign Lowe, then trade for a third baseman.