Does this just make too much sense? (Andre Johnson wants out of Houston)

[Zeus]

From SMY's Sunday notes column in today's Boston Globe:

"It would take not only financial maneuvering, but there’s also the matter of what Houston would want in return. One AFC scout said Johnson is no longer elite, citing his age (33) and a bit of a slowdown when it comes to his breakaway speed, though he is still very good, and guessed it would take a second- or third-round pick to get him.

Johnson would have to agree to a pay cut to play for a team such as New England, and the feeling is that he would be open to doing that."
​

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2...from-texans/QevYOzgl3hMqsD2ZzryYhP/story.html

Scout's opinions may well differ here but I wouldn't want NE to pay $10 million (and the requisite draft pick compensation) for a player who is "no longer elite." As I said earlier in this thread, AJ would have to a significant pay cut for this to make sense for the Patriots.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I wouldn't want NE to pay $10 million (and the requisite draft pick compensation) for a player who is "no longer elite." As I said earlier in this thread, AJ would have to a significant pay cut for this to make sense for the Patriots.

Moss 2007 was elite. Our D was aging but much better than years afterward. Our elite WR, plus Welker in his prime and Brady at his peak still failed to score enough points and our decent but not elite D managed to come up short at least twice on the final drive by the champs. I prefer a return to the model where the Pats invest in a soul crushing game ending D as our QB ages gracefully. It will keep the window of contention open longer.

 

[Deus Irae]

A top player we need vs a top player we dont.

Top 3 offense, Bottom half defense.

We don't need more offense.
we do need more defense.

This is actual football
this is not fantasy football

Take a look at the defense. Take a look at the offense. Find the positions with issues/questions that really exist even if all the players are healthy at the start of the season. Guess where they are?

TE
WR
ORG
C

LB (if Collins doesn't work out)
S2

As I said earlier, your post basically made no sense. It's a post that makes it seem as if you haven't been following the Patriots, or the NFL, at all for the past 3 seasons.

 

[Deus Irae]

Moss 2007 was elite. Our D was aging but much better than years afterward. Our elite WR, plus Welker in his prime and Brady at his peak still failed to score enough points and our decent but not elite D managed to come up short at least twice on the final drive by the champs. I prefer a return to the model where the Pats invest in a soul crushing game ending D as our QB ages gracefully. It will keep the window of contention open longer.

Pointing to that one game as proof of any kind of failing for going offense in general, particularly when Brady was completely hobbled, the TEs were all injured and the starting RG was lost early in the game, is being incredibly unfair.

 

[supafly]

Disagree
Randy Moss @ Pats > AJ
What did we win?
Rather have a strong D rather than relying on Brady playing lights out through the playoffs

First off, I agree 100% with you about wanting to improve the defense over the offense, but there's also a part of me that wonders what things would look like with a physical receiver such as an Anquan Boldin or Andre Johnson on the unit just the same.

I would imagine that it would force teams to play us much differently, and could end up rivaling the offense firepower of some pretty good teams of the past. One can make a reasonable argument that a big, true, physical #1 WR may have been the difference between winning SB46 and maybe even one of the past 2 AFCCGs (I'll go with the 2012 season vs last year) with Gronk hobbled, etc.

The obvious question would be how much to give up--both in terms of draft compensation + salary demands. I would not be opposed as a fan to see a 3rd round draft pick given up if Andre Johnson would be okay with taking, say--6.5 to 7 million dollars per year. Of course, I have no idea how realistic either proposal would be, but it's intriguing nonetheless. For the record this is coming from someone who is generally opposed to these kinds of "fantastical" WR moves. I'm a sucker for that big, physical kind of WR though.

 

[Ivan]

First off, I agree 100% with you about wanting to improve the defense over the offense, but there's also a part of me that wonders what things would look like with a physical receiver such as an Anquan Boldin or Andre Johnson on the unit just the same.

I would imagine that it would force teams to play us much differently, and could end up rivaling the offense firepower of some pretty good teams of the past. One can make a reasonable argument that a big, true, physical #1 WR may have been the difference between winning SB46 and maybe even one of the past 2 AFCCGs (I'll go with the 2012 season vs last year) with Gronk hobbled, etc.

The obvious question would be how much to give up--both in terms of draft compensation + salary demands. I would not be opposed as a fan to see a 3rd round draft pick given up if Andre Johnson would be okay with taking, say--6.5 to 7 million dollars per year. Of course, I have no idea how realistic either proposal would be, but it's intriguing nonetheless. For the record this is coming from someone who is generally opposed to these kinds of "fantastical" WR moves. I'm a sucker for that big, physical kind of WR though.

I'm fine with them giving up a good pick for Johnson, my only opposition is if his deal would keep them from re-signing Revis and McCourty.

 

[james87654]

Moss 2007 was elite. Our D was aging but much better than years afterward. Our elite WR, plus Welker in his prime and Brady at his peak still failed to score enough points and our decent but not elite D managed to come up short at least twice on the final drive by the champs. I prefer a return to the model where the Pats invest in a soul crushing game ending D as our QB ages gracefully. It will keep the window of contention open longer.

even 2007 moss wasnt explosive like he was his first 5 or so years......but ur right.....still elite......i hope and think that AJ will age better than moss.....once moss lost his acceleration and got stiff he had nothing else to go to.......dbs could get physical with him and he looked like he wanted no part of it......looked almost a little frail the last 2 years......and im a big moss fan.....but Cris carter and revis both commented on how moss would stop giving full effort if you got physical with him and things werent going his way......i hope AJ can be like TO without the drama going forward......and i also agree about the better defense.....we got our ty law......we have a good safety like Rodney in DMC even though FS vs SS......well see about the lbs......i just wonder if we have anyone that can be as disruptive on the DL as seymour against the run and pass

not actually saying that we will get AJ.....dont think we will.......just rambling......and i get your point about our most prolific offense of all time only getting 14 pts in 70 degree dome weather........deus has a couple of valid points too

 

[james87654]

First off, I agree 100% with you about wanting to improve the defense over the offense, but there's also a part of me that wonders what things would look like with a physical receiver such as an Anquan Boldin or Andre Johnson on the unit just the same.

I would imagine that it would force teams to play us much differently, and could end up rivaling the offense firepower of some pretty good teams of the past. One can make a reasonable argument that a big, true, physical #1 WR may have been the difference between winning SB46 and maybe even one of the past 2 AFCCGs (I'll go with the 2012 season vs last year) with Gronk hobbled, etc.

The obvious question would be how much to give up--both in terms of draft compensation + salary demands. I would not be opposed as a fan to see a 3rd round draft pick given up if Andre Johnson would be okay with taking, say--6.5 to 7 million dollars per year. Of course, I have no idea how realistic either proposal would be, but it's intriguing nonetheless. For the record this is coming from someone who is generally opposed to these kinds of "fantastical" WR moves. I'm a sucker for that big, physical kind of WR though.

i agree completely about wanting a big physical outside WR......who knows whether dobson can be that.......im sick of us trotting out 3 semi slot receivers

 

[supafly]

I'm fine with them giving up a good pick for Johnson, my only opposition is if his deal would keep them from re-signing Revis and McCourty.

I'm fine with them giving up a 3rd rounder and maybe even including a guy like Mallett--although I'm not thrilled at the idea of not having an experienced backup for the upcoming season. As much as I never thought he'd be traded (and still really don't), I think many here tend to throw his name around a bit too much in trade discussions. If that's what it would take though....

I wouldn't pay a dime more than 7m per year AAV though, so that'd be my limit. With 7m dollars (hypothetically, for the upcoming season and 2015 as well) I feel that it wouldn't necessarily limit us anymore than usual as it pertains to the 2 DBs you are concerned with retaining. If anything, an argument could be made that we could move Amendola after the season is over, and maybe even save a few bucks by cutting one of Connelly/Wendell + Arrington.

My concern is with Revis, not McCourty. I think we get the deal done with McCourty, personally. Signing Johnson wouldn't change my concern about Revis one way or another, personally. I think that's a whole other discussion that I'm sure we'll have many times

 

[supafly]

i agree completely about wanting a big physical outside WR......who knows whether dobson can be that.......im sick of us trotting out 3 semi slot receivers

I hate to be the pessimistic **** of the forum in this case, but I have some apprehension and cautious optimism as it pertains to Aaron Dobson.

I've seen everyone freaking out and talking about both Tate and Price being the "next biggest thing" based on college production, 40 times, and other measurables in the past several years. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me three times---and I'm just a complete dumbass of a homer.

Hopefully, Dobson steps up and makes the leap this year.

 

[Mack Herron]

i agree completely about wanting a big physical outside WR......who knows whether dobson can be that.......im sick of us trotting out 3 semi slot receivers

Dobson has skills for sure but physicality is not one of them. I'm sure he has been hitting the weights but Johnson has 30 lbs of muscle on Dobson and I don't see that happening.

 

[james87654]

Dobson has skills for sure but physicality is not one of them. I'm sure he has been hitting the weights but Johnson has 30 lbs of muscle on Dobson and I don't see that happening.

i agree that dobson wont ever have AJ's body.....AJ is built like a tank......thats one reason i hope he can age well like TO did

 

[supafly]

Dobson has skills for sure but physicality is not one of them. I'm sure he has been hitting the weights but Johnson has 30 lbs of muscle on Dobson and I don't see that happening.

i agree that dobson wont ever have AJ's body.....AJ is built like a tank......thats one reason i hope he can age well like TO did

Yep, that physicality aspect is what intrigues me the most. While most others want the speedy, take the top off a defense type of WR, I think a strong, physical specimen like Johnson or Boldin may fit even better in this specific system.

 

[james87654]

Yep, that physicality aspect is what intrigues me the most. While most others want the speedy, take the top off a defense type of WR, I think a strong, physical specimen like Johnson or Boldin may fit even better in this specific system.

im tired of seeing brady overthrow shorter guys when they occasionally break free on a vertical route.....im also tired of our WRs getting muscled......i want at least WR out there who can go up and get those 50-50 type balls, at least some of them.......we see what a difference it makes having gronk out there with his big hands and catching radius

 

[supafly]

im tired of seeing brady overthrow shorter guys when they occasionally break free on a vertical route.....im also tired of our WRs getting muscled......i want at least WR out there who can go up and get those 50-50 type balls, at least some of them.......we see what a difference it makes having gronk out there with his big hands and catching radius

Absolutely, James.

I'm normally against signing these kinds of bigger named WRs, since it's not cap friendly and there aren't many teams who normally have both a franchise QB and a franchise WR who are competitive year in and year out. The cost is just too prohibitive in many cases, unless maybe you're talking about the possibility of a guy like Larry Fitzgerald etc---someone who you could pretty much bank on getting the job done and fitting in the system/locker room.

In the case of Andre Johnson, the reasoning that you've provided makes it more of a compelling case for me as a fan. I'm starting to come around to the idea, as long as it'd be within the 3rd round pick (plus maybe a player) and 7 million maximum per year borders. The problem is that I'd doubt that would be enough, so it's probably a moot point in the end.

 

[Ivan]

I'm fine with them giving up a 3rd rounder and maybe even including a guy like Mallett--although I'm not thrilled at the idea of not having an experienced backup for the upcoming season. As much as I never thought he'd be traded (and still really don't), I think many here tend to throw his name around a bit too much in trade discussions. If that's what it would take though....

I wouldn't pay a dime more than 7m per year AAV though, so that'd be my limit. With 7m dollars (hypothetically, for the upcoming season and 2015 as well) I feel that it wouldn't necessarily limit us anymore than usual as it pertains to the 2 DBs you are concerned with retaining. If anything, an argument could be made that we could move Amendola after the season is over, and maybe even save a few bucks by cutting one of Connelly/Wendell + Arrington.

My concern is with Revis, not McCourty. I think we get the deal done with McCourty, personally. Signing Johnson wouldn't change my concern about Revis one way or another, personally. I think that's a whole other discussion that I'm sure we'll have many times

I want to see what Amendola does this season before passing any judgement on him. I think he's ttough as they come and really talented but snakebit with injuries, but the bottom line is playing and production and he has to have his best season to make the case for remaining with them. If he stays healthy i think he is going to have a great season and their offense is going to benefit big time from it.

 

[Deus Irae]

im tired of seeing brady overthrow shorter guys when they occasionally break free on a vertical route.....im also tired of our WRs getting muscled......i want at least WR out there who can go up and get those 50-50 type balls, at least some of them.......we see what a difference it makes having gronk out there with his big hands and catching radius

If they could have gotten Anquan Boldin a few years back, instead of him going to the Ravens, it's likely that NFL history would be a whole lot different.

 

[mayoclinic]

If they could have gotten Anquan Boldin a few years back, instead of him going to the Ravens, it's likely that NFL history would be a whole lot different.

They could have just drafted the beast in 2003, instead of Bethel Johnson.

 

[Deus Irae]

They could have just drafted the beast in 2003, instead of Bethel Johnson.

You're just trying to make me cry now.

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

I just read Pat Kirwan's top 100 player list and noticed the analysis of his Andre Johnson ranking.

"41. Andre Johnson, WR, Texans: If he ever plays with Tom Brady, his numbers would be a record."

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer...op-ranked-tom-brady-thrives-despite-obstacles