Does anyone have insight into the secondary?

[patfanken]

Re: A brief history of attempted Cover 3, aka beginner's luck

I dont know what you are looking at, but it seems clear that Arrington, Wilson, and Gregory had deep 1/3s.
Wilson played it in textbook style, unless you think textbook is to abandon your 1/3 because there is a receiver in someone elses 1/3.

Now that I've reread your post. I see what you are saying. However, assuming that you are correct, the fact Wilson was "in the middle" doesn't mitigate the fact that he didn't get deep enough.

That being said, my interpretation was that if the TE didn't threaten the seam immediately Wilson was to GET DEEP. You think it was to the deep middle. I think it was to the deep half. Just a matter of interpretation. But the key point it regardless of how you view it, Wilson STILL doesn't get deep enough to help in his ultimate responsibility. Shame on him for not getting deep enough. Kudos to him for recovering in time to make a play on the ball.

BTW - as someone who made the transition from OLB to safety, one of the hardest concepts you have to learn is that you are rarely too deep. I can't tell you the times I felt I was plenty deep and when we went back to the films and I could see the entire field, you would see that I was sometimes 10 yds too shallow. I guess it is the natural instinct to want to get "close to the action". However although its counter intuitive, you eventually find out that the deeper you get to start, the closer you wind up to where the action is. Unfortunately for me, by the time I was finally getting this concept down, I was told my services were no longer needed.

 

[p8ryts]

Sorry, but this wasn't pass interference. McCourty did NOT touch the receiver until after the ball had already hit McCourty. As soon as the ball touches someone other than the QB, there can't be pass interference.



NFL Videos: Locker throws INT in end zone

This was NOT pass interference either. Sorry. You seem to have missed the part of the game where the defender is entitled to the ball as much as the receiver. Washington initiated the contact, not Arrington. Also, not sure how you call it "Cover 3" when Arrington was in MAN coverage the entire time, running down the sideline with Washington..

Wilson may or may not have been out of position as he was 20 yards off the LOS. But he DID see that Arrington and Washington both were going deep AND he had the heads up enough to go and trail the play and ended up putting himself in perfect position to get the ball after it hit off Arrington's facemask.

I agree and thanks for posting the video. I don't know about the McCourty one. When I first saw it I thought it was a mugging but then they showed another couple views and it just looked like close coverage and the ball hit McCourty's arm before they was significant contact.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: A brief history of attempted Cover 3, aka beginner's luck

spoke like a true C, Andy. .

Don't know what that means.

You are partially right. I think

How can I be 'partially right' based on you 'think' you know what was going on?

the idea was to wind up with Wilson deep, but with the S's helping the CBs in deep coverage

There is nothing to back this up

. Gregory almost immediately goes to McCourty's side of the field.

Because he has that deep 1/3rd

Wilson job was to get depth, and likely (since we don't know for sure) if no one threatens him deep, help out Arringon on his side of the filed.

Why is that likely? Under what type of zone do you leave your zone if someone is in someone elses? Wilsons zone extended from 15 yards deep to the end zone. He is clearly stationary reading routes, not running for the end zone because he is 'supposed to get depth'.
Your 'analysis' is nothing but a wild guess that circles around to get the result you wanted.
How you admit you are guessing then try to crtique someone elses view is mind boggling.

He's not supposed to just sit in the middle of the field regardless.

He is supposed to play his zone. If there is a deep slant or crossing route, that is his job. His job is not to run 30 yards back and leave the middle of the field open.

If you look back at the play we can infer that he'd already read Locker and had moved to the right side of the field. However because he stopped gaining depth, he had to come back to the ball from behind the play rather than from the side.

That is totally incorrect. He stayed basically stationary (which is where he belongs as he reads routes into his zone) until the ball was thrown.

I mean, Andy, I'm just guessing like everyone else here based on my interpretation of what I'm seeing, and I could make a few different ones from the same evidence. What is pretty clear to me is this.

1. The Pats wanted to make it look like a 3 deep look with one deep S and one playing the TE in man or zone underneath.

How is that obvious? It doesn't even seem likely

2. At the snap they rotated Gregory to the deep outside in some kind of combo coverage with McCourty. Man or Zone I can't tell.

Cover 3

3. I'm pretty sure if the TE had run an immediate seam route Wilson would have taken him as he was gaining depth at the snap of the ball. Since the TE broke outside, Wilson's job was to continue to gain depth and help Arringon on any deep routes to his side as Gregory was on the other side, and give the TE to a LB underneath.

There is absolutely no evidence of this, and it is ludicrous to say that a safety playing the middle third should run to the deep right zone instead of defend his own zone. The rule of a zone is cover the deepest man in your zone not leave it if no one goes deep.
I hope our opponents play cover 3 and abandon the middle of the field to double a go route. We will eat them alive.

4. The idea of the disguise was to have the QB think that Wilson would be covering the TE short, and either Washington or Wright would have single coverage on the outside deep. When he saw Gregory moving to Wrights side, he knew to go to Washington. and he did.

Well it was zone, and both the outside receivers had their man without help.
By your argument Wilson should have run in both directions,but you only argue one apparently because he should have guessed which one would be thrown to.

5. If Wilson had gotten enough depth it would have been a perfect trap,

It wasn';t a trap it was cover3

Instead Locker got expectly what he wanted except Arrington was in great position and it wasn't a great ball. He if had led Washington more toward the post, there was no one deep enough to have helped and the Pats would have been in trouble. If Wilson had gotten enough depth then leading him to the post would have been leading him right into Wilson.

Wilson had deep 1/3. If it were a post pattern, Wilson would have seen that zone threatened. When the ball was released the receiver was outside the numbers, that is not the concern of the man covering the middle 1/3 in cover 3

6. It was the right concept, with incomplete execution by one person, which turned out OK. That happens a lot in the game of football, which you well know.

No, yuo have invented what you think the coverage was, and decided that you knew the call and Wilson didn't.
In your call, who is covering the middle 1/3 of the field 11-30 yards deep, if you think Wilson was supposed to run deep at the snap.
Have you ever seen a defense designed to leave everything between the numbers more than 11 yards deep uncovered?
Your analysis says that is what the call was.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: A brief history of attempted Cover 3, aka beginner's luck

Now that I've reread your post. I see what you are saying. However, assuming that you are correct, the fact Wilson was "in the middle" doesn't mitigate the fact that he didn't get deep enough.

That being said, my interpretation was that if the TE didn't threaten the seam immediately Wilson was to GET DEEP. You think it was to the deep middle. I think it was to the deep half. Just a matter of interpretation. But the key point it regardless of how you view it, Wilson STILL doesn't get deep enough to help in his ultimate responsibility. Shame on him for not getting deep enough. Kudos to him for recovering in time to make a play on the ball.

BTW - as someone who made the transition from OLB to safety, one of the hardest concepts you have to learn is that you are rarely too deep. I can't tell you the times I felt I was plenty deep and when we went back to the films and I could see the entire field, you would see that I was sometimes 10 yds too shallow. I guess it is the natural instinct to want to get "close to the action". However although its counter intuitive, you eventually find out that the deeper you get to start, the closer you wind up to where the action is. Unfortunately for me, by the time I was finally getting this concept down, I was told my services were no longer needed.

If Wilson was supposed to get deep with no deep reciever who covers all of the field inside the number 11+ yards deep?

 

[p8ryts]

I'm not sure which one of you guys is right but I love the videos and discussion. Please keep it up and don't take anyone's disagreement personal.

 

[UK_Pat37]

This was the one disappointment. Many of the same problems that plagued them a year ago remained, including big plays (seven passes of 14 yards or more, three of 24 or more). Their zone coverage remains too loose, and forget about man-to-man, as Kyle Arrington showed when he was undressed by Nate Washington on fourth-and-1. Arrington simply let him run by untouched for a 24-yard completion. Washington’s 29-yard TD catch came after Jake Locker was pressured by Vince Wilfork [stats]. The secondary gambled and Washington got behind it in part because safety Steve Gregory was slow to react. Devin McCourty again struggled to cover anybody and got away with brutal pass interference in the end zone that should have given the ball to Tennessee on the 1. He had no idea where the ball was and both held and ran into Damian Williams without once looking for the ball. Ras-I Dowling was awful early but seemed to get better as things progressed. Rookie Tavon Wilson made a leaping interception of a pass that bounced of Arrington’s face mask and showed some good signs, but he also was so slow to react on one Jared Cook route when he gave him a free release into their zone defense, allowing him to run wide open for a 35-yard gain. Overall, not good but sadly familiar. Patriots report card: High marks in opening win - BostonHerald.com

I wouldn't criticise Arrington too much on that play...he got a good jam and he had very good positioning however there's three inches in height difference. The Pats all out blitzed, left one high and Locker new it was coming...so he audibled to it and you see him do it.

Arrington had the position...Locker just put it right whee Arrington wasnt going to get it and the height advantage did the rest.

 

[Triumph]

Man, you could at least include a Ron Borges disclaimer.

Why? Hes right.

 

[unoriginal]

This wasn't directed at me but I'll jump in here.

I dont know what you are looking at, but it seems clear that Arrington, Wilson, and Gregory had deep 1/3s.
Wilson played it in textbook style, unless you think textbook is to abandon your 1/3 because there is a receiver in someone elses 1/3.

Why is that likely? Under what type of zone do you leave your zone if someone is in someone elses? Wilsons zone extended from 15 yards deep to the end zone. He is clearly stationary reading routes, not running for the end zone because he is 'supposed to get depth'.

He is supposed to play his zone. If there is a deep slant or crossing route, that is his job. His job is not to run 30 yards back and leave the middle of the field open.
[…]
The rule of a zone is cover the deepest man in your zone not leave it if no one goes deep.
[…]
Wilson had deep 1/3. If it were a post pattern, Wilson would have seen that zone threatened. When the ball was released the receiver was outside the numbers, that is not the concern of the man covering the middle 1/3 in cover 3

I cannot tell you the number of times I have jumped on a shallow route, only to have a deeper route snake around behind me and break wide open. The first rule of zone coverage is not to jump the first man to threaten "your" zone. It is to always get depth. When you are a back end player, depth and the sideline are your only friends.

"Wilson being stationary reading routes" and "his zone extended from 15 yards to the end zone" are competing qualifications. If the three receivers in front of him (halfback, fullback, slot) all ran short routes around the line of scrimmage and the sticks, a deep zone player is not supposed to stand around watching them scuttle around, but to backpedal until everything is in front of him, or the ball is thrown. It is hard to see what both outside receivers are doing at once, and he came to a stop before he could tell whether Washington was running go, post, or dig. If either outside receiver runs a post, Wilson needs to be in position to stop it. He does not need to be in position to stop the slot receiver leaking behind the short zones during a scramble drill.

Again, if Wilson was given a point of emphasis in the game plan to rob in-cuts, he did his job well. He was right there waiting for a cross. And apart from Arrington being on Washington's outside all the way downfield, there's nothing that says that wasn't his job.

But if it's classic zone principles, he didn't, he got stuck in no-man's land. Cover 3 is designed so that deep players can bracket multiple deep routes. Instead, the Pats ended with one-on-one matchups forty yards downfield. Not ideal given the shell called.

 

[unoriginal]

Getting back to the PI stuff:

NFL Videos: Locker throws INT in end zone

This was NOT pass interference either. Sorry. You seem to have missed the part of the game where the defender is entitled to the ball as much as the receiver. Washington initiated the contact, not Arrington.

I completely disagree with your 2nd point. Arrington had good position and any contact I saw looks mutual and incidental. If Arrington should be criticized for anything, its not making the pick himself.

Here's the pic of the ball bopping Arrington in the face:

That happens around the 2 yard line. One can also see Washington barely gets his hand on it.

This is where contact first starts getting heavy. That's around the 7 yard line. So there's about five yards of contact, and watching video, one can see that Washington slows up (gets slowed up) a lot while going for the ball here.

Arrington is in front of Washington, pushing him back. Washington's forward progress goes to crap by about the 4 yard line. Looking at this play, I see a cornerback get in front of wide receiver, ride his upfield shoulder to slow him down, and push off to create space between Washington and the ball. Washington leaps not because he's timing a jump, but because Arrington has done a good job of, as post-players in basketball would say, knocking him off his spot.

I am not saying Arrington is not entitled to the ball, or to make a play on the ball, same as the receiver. I am saying Arrington is not entitled to make a play on the receiver like this. He is allowed incidental contact. Instead he is altering the receiver's route, not covering it.

I would not be surprised if this sort of thing were called PI on any given Sunday, nor upset by it.

 

[UK_Pat37]

Re: A brief history of attempted Cover 3, aka beginner's luck

I dont know what you are looking at, but it seems clear that Arrington, Wilson, and Gregory had deep 1/3s.
Wilson played it in textbook style, unless you think textbook is to abandon your 1/3 because there is a receiver in someone elses 1/3.

Spot on. In the event of cover three he shouldn't be leaving his zone until that ball is released?