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Do You Want Plaxico Burress?


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This Thread is LAUGHABLE.


which young receiver is getting voted off of the island to make room for a has been. We do not need him. he will be good for another team no doubt, but we do not need him.
 
Tate's numbers didn't drop off because teams focused on him more, they dropped off because NE utilized him in a completely different manner. Your adding a level of causation that isn't quite aligned with the truth.

I disagree. I think you're ignoring something obvious. I've mentioned elsewhere that Tate did have a new, expanded, role. However, that's not enough to justify the precipitous decline in his game. What you keep leaving out is that defenses didn't have to put their best players on Moss and still shade to his side.

I don't want Burress, but he could certainly play in the system.

As for why I mentioned Gaffney and Givens, it's because neither of them fit "the system". That's because "the system" is not precisely what everyone seems to try claiming it to be. It's not 900 smurfs running 3 yard routes. It's a mix of players running a mix of routes and patrolling different areas on the field.

Short
Short-intermediate
Intermediate-long
Long

That's the blend the team looks for. From Charles Johnson, to Donald Hayes, to Davis, Gaffney and Gabriel, to Randy Moss, having a taller, if less shifty, receiver has been part of the "system" when possible, too, albeit with varying degrees of success. The Givens/Caldwell/Stallworth height of 6'0" has been the short size of the 'bigger' receivers.

The one real across-the-board requirement is the ability to adjust on the fly based upon reading the defense, and doing it on the same page as the QB. That's something you can't know about, and can only guess about, until the player is on the team. Givens, Gaffney and Moss could do it. Hayes, Gabriel and Galloway could/would not.
 
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One assumes that Tate on a fly route wouldn't draw deep coverage and free underneath routes?

BTW...How accurate is Brady on long passes ???? Moss had stride and a height/reach advantage over most CB's....

Maybe Tate wouldn't draw double coverage, (until he consistently caught accurate long passes) but he sure as heck could clear out an area.... :D
 
I disagree. I think you're ignoring something obvious. I've mentioned elsewhere that Tate did have a new, expanded, role. However, that's not enough to justify the precipitous decline in his game. What you keep leaving out is that defenses didn't have to put their best players on Moss and still shade to his side.

Gotcha on the "bigger" receivers.

We aren't going to agree on Tate. The Moss effect is wholly overstated. Between Branch/Welker/Gronk/Ahern Tate was still the 3rd or 4th threat on any passing play and treated accordingly. It isn't like teams started sliding their best cover guys over to him because Randy was gone, those players moved over to Wes and Deion.

The defenders were the same, but the usage was different and the offense changed from targetting big plays to mehodical marches.
 
Gotcha on the "bigger" receivers.

We aren't going to agree on Tate. The Moss effect is wholly overstated. Between Branch/Welker/Gronk/Ahern Tate was still the 3rd or 4th threat on any passing play and treated accordingly. It isn't like teams started sliding their best cover guys over to him because Randy was gone, those players moved over to Wes and Deion.

The defenders were the same, but the usage was different and the offense changed from targetting big plays to mehodical marches.

The Moss effect is not being overstated. You're acting as if bringing Branch in dropped Tate from #2 to #22 on the depth chart. It did nothing of the kind.

And what you are ignoring isn't the primary defender as much as the secondary defender.
 
The Moss effect is not being overstated. You're acting as if bringing Branch in dropped Tate from #2 to #22 on the depth chart. It did nothing of the kind.

And what you are ignoring isn't the primary defender as much as the secondary defender.

:confused:

I specifically said it was the same defender. You are claiming that Tate was against the 3rd or 4th CB when Moss was around and moved up afterward, causing him to flounder. I am saying that Tate was the 3rd or 4th guy before and after, it was his role that changed.
 
The Giants have an excellent, veteran coach, and that didn't stop Burress. The Steelers organization is solid from top to bottom, and that didn't stop Burress.

You are absolutely correct. I'd be interested to see what Bruschi thinks of Plaxico

However, I think there are still a few differences. Coughlin is much more of a hard@$$ than Belichick, is much "stricter" and sort of rules like a dictator. That does not mesh well with the type of player Burress is.

The Steelers organization seems to be very concerned with their image, and have shipped out guys who were great players for them (Plax, Santonio) due to off the field issues, with Big Ben being the lone exception (even though there were a lot of rumors that they considered parting ways with him).

The Pats, under Belichick, have gone after some problematic guys, whether it be on the field or off the field. Just like Parcells and Jimmy Johnson did when they were winning Super Bowls with guys like LT and Irvin, Belichick realizes that you don't treat every player the same. I think it's one of Belichick's best traits as a coach. He knows that some guys need to be coddled (like Moss was), that he has to really get on some guys to get the most out of them, that he can let a guy coast a little during practice if that guy always shows up on game day.

I didn't love the way Plax approached the game when he was last in the league. He seemed like a dog to me at times, just like Moss did at times with the Pats. But the thing with Plax was he always showed up on Sunday. Even if he dogged it during the week at practice a few times, he still showed up and was a gamer and a difference maker on Sundays. He always seemed to come up big/clutch in the biggest moments, while Moss often was a non-factor at the end of games. There were sometimes Moss just showed up to a game and you could tell he was going to have a pity party, and I hated that about him. Plax seemed like more of a competitor to me.

I'm not saying this guy will solve all the Pats problems or be the same player he was with the Pats. Maybe he's simply not worth it with the character concerns (we've done a nice job cleaning out the locker room with guys like Adalius and Moss hitting the bricks). That's how I felt months ago.

But the more I think about it recently, the more I like the idea of giving it a chance. I can't imagine he's going to get big money thrown at him by anyone. I'd like to see us have a "bigger" WR on the outside who can run some deep/intermediate routes and make plays downfield.

We have one the best slot WR's in the game in Welker and another great slot guy in Edelman. Branch is great at sitting down in zone, but at his age and height he struggles to separate vs man coverage. I had high hopes for Tate, but he is still an enigma. We really can't judge Price yet.

Yes, we can stretch the field down the seam with Hernandez or Gronk, but I'd also like someone who can make a difference outside the numbers. I always liked Plax's skill set and wouldn't mind taking a gamble on him. He's not going to be the guy he was in 2007-08, but like Branch did last year, I think he can come in and play role and help this team.

I'd be interested to hear Bruschi's take on Plax and his fit with the Pats. Bruschi seems to have the best idea of anyone in the media about Belichick and his thought process, and he would be the best one to ask if Plax could pickup the Pats offensive scheme quick enough. It seemed like Willie Mac was just using the old cliche of a troubled veteran with some character/legal issues but talent going to the Pats to resurrect his career.



Aside from whether or not we'd want him, would he want to come here?

He needs money, bad, and I think his first priority would be getting paid. Is BB going to open up the checkbook for him? I rather doubt it, at best I think we'd give him a league minimum deal with incentives based on production, and him not being familiar with the Pat's offense would make that less than attractive.

I bet he ends up in St. Louis, they desperately need WRs for Bradford to throw to, and apparently Plax has a good relationship with Spags.


I agree, he needs the money. But how many teams are going to give him big time money to him? 33 going on 34, out of the league for a few years, character/legal problems in the past, etc.

It seems like anywhere Plax goes, he's going to have to sign a one year, prove-it type of deal.

Maybe a team like the Rams will be willing to pay a little more due to their need at WR, so if he's all about the money, you are right: he will probably end up there.

I think he wants to go Philly and I think Vick wants him there. They've got some electric guys like Maclin and Desean, and Plax would be a nice physical complement that could play a helpful role over the middle of the field and in the red zone. If the Eagles are willing to shell out the cash, I think that's probably Plax's #1 choice.

I've gone back and forth on the topic of Plax. Right now I'm leaning towards giving him a shot if he's willing to come.
 
The Pats, under Belichick, have gone after some problematic guys, whether it be on the field or off the field.

NE did that when they had a coaches gift of a locker room. BB has done everything but put up a neon sign saying, "Problem children, keep out!" in the past 2 years. Now way he takes on a guy who was a headache before he went to prison.
 
NE did that when they had a coaches gift of a locker room. BB has done everything but put up a neon sign saying, "Problem children, keep out!" in the past 2 years. Now way he takes on a guy who was a headache before he went to prison.


Just because Burress had problems before doesn’t mean he automatically will now, Vick’s work ethic is night and day compared top before he went to jail. Being older, needing money and a place to prove himself, and in an environment without twits like Brandon Jacobs and Antonio Pierce could make a big difference, and there’s nothing to stop BB from getting rid of him if he’s a problem.

I don’t see us grabbing Burress, I see him going to the Rams, but I also wouldn’t be shocked if we get him, nor do I think it’s not within the realm of possibility.
 
I..on the other hand.......WOULD be shocked if the Pats grabbed Plaxico.. :eek:
 
I'd much rather have Moss.
 
The Pats, under Belichick, have gone after some problematic guys, whether it be on the field or off the field. Just like Parcells and Jimmy Johnson did when they were winning Super Bowls with guys like LT and Irvin, Belichick realizes that you don't treat every player the same. I think it's one of Belichick's best traits as a coach. He knows that some guys need to be coddled (like Moss was), that he has to really get on some guys to get the most out of them, that he can let a guy coast a little during practice if that guy always shows up on game day.

I just reread "The Education of a Coach" and enjoyed it as much as the first time I read it. One of the points the author makes is that BB ultimately decided that the special treatment of LT was a mistake.

This doesn't mean that players shouldn't be handled differently; it does mean that players should be handled fairly and with the same basic standards. Note that Moss got sent home from that early morning snowstorm session just like a few other guys.

I'm not convinced that BB is setting the double-standards that you think he is.
 
:confused:

I specifically said it was the same defender. You are claiming that Tate was against the 3rd or 4th CB when Moss was around and moved up afterward, causing him to flounder. I am saying that Tate was the 3rd or 4th guy before and after, it was his role that changed.

That's not what I'm claiming.
 
1) I stand corrected. He never looked fast to me, certainly not the speed Brandon displayed on his KO returns. But I'll take your word for it.
I'm pretty sure you're correct here. Plaxico ran a 4.56 in college CNNSI.com - 2000 NFL Draft - Steelers thrilled to nab 'playmaker' Burress at No. 8 - Saturday April 15, 2000 04:38 PM . All the Plaxico ran a 4.4 stuff that I've ever seen was published years later and by duious sources. Plus that was 11 years ago; I'm sure he's slowed down.

There's a 4.51 or 4.52 number out there for Tate but I have no idea where it comes from-since he got hurt in October of his senior year he didn't run at the combine or, according to a bunch of reports, his pro day. Maybe it's a junior year number?

NFL.com Blogs Pro Days «

[If he did run a 4.51 or a 4.52 as a senior post injury pre draft then he's probably faster than that-the draft was six months after his ACL tear.]

I've got to think Tate's faster than 4.51 given his KOR records from college and his success as a KOR in the pros (teams were just kicking away from him the last half of the year)

EDIT: I found one reliable 40 time for Tate-4.53. Its from April 2004, his junior year in high school http://texasprepextra.rivals.com/cpevent.asp?Key=1628 I'd be shocked if he hasn't improved greatly on that.

Tate has serious issues as a deep threat (positioning, hands, ability to read the ball, aggresivness getting it, ability to separate from a receiver) I really don't think raw speed is one of them.
 
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It's up there with a "fan" written article asking "Would Terrell Owens be a better fit for the Patriots than Ochocinco?"

I would take Terrell Owens or Ochocinco or Randy Moss before bringing this guy here.

NO!
 
I would take Terrell Owens or Ochocinco or Randy Moss before bringing this guy here.

NO!

The only 1 of those 3 guys who has a tiny shot @ being a Pat is Ochocinco. Bill really likes him. I still don't think it will ever happen. I really do want to see Larry Fitzgerald in a Pats uniform some day. Brady & Fitzgerald would be a match made in heaven!
 
I really do want to see Larry Fitzgerald in a Pats uniform some day. Brady & Fitzgerald would be a match made in heaven!

Amen, Brother:rocker:
 
I would take Terrell Owens or Ochocinco or Randy Moss before bringing this guy here.

NO!

Why?

Owens has always been a me-first player who has worn out his welcome in numerous places and burned many bridges. He demands that he is the focal point of any offense and "needs" the ball. His ego, attitude, and all the baggage he brings off the field (he's split more locker rooms than any other player over the last decade and has his own reality show or w/e) are not even close to worth it, especially with his declining skills.

Moss was a tremendous success here from 07-09. I was never a big fan of the guy and his "I'll play when I want to play" attitude, but he had a few very productive years here. But Moss has always been one of those guys who is a bit of an enigma and can disappear or go into a shell when the going gets tough. He's also definitely lost a step and can no longer just out-run every DB in the league. If he wants to contribute heavily to an offense, he has to be more willing to start working the middle of the field, and he's not so keen on doing that, as we saw him alligator arm quite a few balls vs the Jets in Week 2 over the middle. One-dimensional vertical WR who pouts, isn't physical enough to operate over the middle, and has lost his greatest asset. No thanks.

Chad Ochocinco is the only one I could understand: if he was younger. He may be a goof ball that loves to talk, loves to self promote, and loves to have fun, but he's a gamer on Sundays. But he's already 33, and his off the field antics have started to make me question whether football is still the top priority in his life (racing horses, riding bulls, reality show, dancing, playing soccer, etc). He started looking over the hill to me in 2010. He called out Revis, and Revis completely shut him down in the final game of 2010 and in the playoff game the next week. He looks like he's lost some of that explosiveness that enabled him to be a great WR 4-5 years ago. Maybe you can squeeze one more year out of him, who knows.

Plaxico Burress had his own issues. He was accused of being lazy, not wanting to practice, etc. He went to jail for two years shooting himself in the leg accidentally. But this guy was never a baby who needed a Randy Ratio like Moss or demanded the ball publicly like T.O. For all the criticism he received, he always showed up and played hard on Sundays. He was a clutch performer at the end of games. Aside from the Giants DL, he was probably the most important player on that team in 2007-08 when they beat us. He absolutely dominated Al Harris in the NFC Championship game and he caught the game winning TD vs us.

Owens, Moss, and Ocho, in my opinion, all relied more on their legs/speed when they were in their prime. All three have lost that explosiveness. Burress was always a big-body WR at 6'6 who had decent 4.5 to 4.6 speed, but relied more on his size and physicality than his speed to make plays.

I'm not saying he's going to be the same dominant big play threat he was for the Giants, but I think he's far more likely to be closer to his former self than guys like Owens, Moss, or Ocho. Maybe Burress can't get vertical as well as he used to, but that was never what his game was built on, unlike Moss. I'd be more than happy to give Brady a chance to see what he can do with a 6'6" clutch target who will work the middle of the field and win jump balls down the sidelines.

Stallworth went to jail for KILLING A MAN for around 30 days, and many people liked the idea of bringing him back in before the 2010 season. Burress may have been somewhat of a brat before going to jail, but I think Owens/Ochocinco/Moss would all be far worse options in terms of distractions and "locker room problems."

I just reread "The Education of a Coach" and enjoyed it as much as the first time I read it. One of the points the author makes is that BB ultimately decided that the special treatment of LT was a mistake.

This doesn't mean that players shouldn't be handled differently; it does mean that players should be handled fairly and with the same basic standards. Note that Moss got sent home from that early morning snowstorm session just like a few other guys.

I'm not convinced that BB is setting the double-standards that you think he is.

I'm not accusing Belichick of setting double-standards. I'm just saying that, no matter where you are or what type of job you have, preferential treatment is inevitable. A guy like Belichick knows and realizes this, and that's why certain guys can get away with more than others. A guy like Willie Andrews gets accused in trouble with marijuana and handguns, and he's gone instantly. A guy like Big Ben gets accused of raping a few different girls, and he's still the Steelers QB. It's just how life is.

The Giants won two Super Bowls with the special treatment for LT. He made the Pro Bowl 10 times, he was a first team All Pro 9 times. He posted double digit sacks for SEVEN straight years.

I have not read that book, so I don't know why Belichick would consider that a mistake, but LT is probably the best OLB ever to play and was the most important player on Belichick's great defenses.

We would all kill to have a guy on the Pats that posted double digit sacks for seven straight years.

NE did that when they had a coaches gift of a locker room. BB has done everything but put up a neon sign saying, "Problem children, keep out!" in the past 2 years. Now way he takes on a guy who was a headache before he went to prison.

I'm not saying the guy wasn't a headache before he went to prison: he was. My point is that regardless of what went on throughout the week, he always showed up and played hard on Sundays. He's not a guy like T.O. who will piss and moan about the # of times he needs to get the ball. He's not a guy like Moss who will shut it down if it's just not going his way.

The "problem children" have only become a big-time issue when what they offered on the field was no longer worth the baggage they brought with them off the field.

Moss was accused of assaulting a woman in 2008, he made remarks before 2010 saying that the Patriots "don't pay" and that 2010 would likely be his last in NE. But he was only shipped out of NE when Belichick felt that his skill set and what he brought to the NE offense was no longer worth the attitude/antics they had to deal with off the field (i.e. those press conferences about how this season would his last as a Patriots).

There were a lot of stories that came out about Adalius being a "problem" from the get-go with the Patriots. He didn't like moving to ILB during 07, he questioned Belichick rather than just do what he was told, he was frustrated early on with his role (playing more coverage than rushing the passer). But Adalius was only discarded of when his level of play didn't equal all the BS Belichick had to deal with off the field. There were stories that dated back to '07 training camp where BB was saying "We backed up the Brinks Truck for this?" But Adalius was a key piece of the defense in 2007, and he was having a pretty good 2008 until he broke his arm. In 2009, Adalius seemingly fell off a cliff and was relegated to a lot of 2-down duty, coming off the field in passing situations. Belichick cut bait after 2009, and it was evident that Adalius' level of play did not match the crap Belichick had to put up with on a day to day basis.

Even with Plaxico, the Giants didn't release him until April 2009. The shooting incident occurred in November 2008. You'd have thought with all the fines/headaches he caused off the field that he'd be released the next day, but that wasn't the case.I remember reading in the NY Times that Jerry Reese said that the Giants were open to bringing him back if his legal issues were resolved. I was shocked when I read it, but it's a perfect example different guys being treated in different ways.

Burress didn't play after he shot himself in the leg, and the Giants offense struggled greatly. The team lost 4 of its 5 last games, going out in the first round the playoffs. Even after all the crap that Plaxico forced the Giants to deal with, Jerry Reese still wanted to bring him back. Despite all the chaos he caused, the Giants realized he was still worth it because of what he did for the team on the field. Shooting himself in the leg, missing meetings, etc. was all water under the bridge when Plax showed up and made a big time impact on Sunday and when the Giants realized how much the offense suffered without him.

I still think Burress can help this team on a one-year, prove-it type of deal. I don't think he's a guy that is going to cause "locker room problems" like Adalius, Springs, and other guys from the 09 team supposedly did. I'm not saying prison will change him as a man. I don't believe that Vick is all of a sudden a different person due to prison. However, I do believe that both he and Vick realize that one more big-time legal flare up and they're toast. And even if they're not smart enough to realize that, they've got plenty of people (agents, Tony "Saint" Dungy, etc) telling them.
 
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