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Do you think Kiper knows what the coaches know?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by RayClay, Apr 27, 2012.

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  1. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    I don't. Seems to me he is totally mystified by some pretty decent picks and touts lots of busts every year.

    If he's clueless about Tavon, I'm actually encouraged. Who's to say a few coaches didn't go to Illinois looking for someone else and made a note about this guy?

    What exactly does Kyper know about playing football anyway? I don't think BB decides to spend a two on a seventh round pick for no reason, I really don't.
  2. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If I'm looking for draft pick and prospect analysis, Kiper Jr is one of the last resources I look at.
  3. satz

    satz Rookie

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    I think you are being very unkind to him.Do you think he has to he staff / money of a NFL team`s scouting department.

    I do not think so , yet he does the best he can. I will bet his avg oh Hits are close to say BB the last 3 yrs and his 33 picks and the success rates.

    BB is one of the best in business , throw piolli in there too. one of best in GM role and i bet there avg are not very off from this guy.

    satz
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2012
  4. Ice Cold Bruschi

    Ice Cold Bruschi Rookie

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    I don't like Kiper either, but I can't say I like this pick at all.
  5. PATRIOTSFANINPA

    PATRIOTSFANINPA Rookie

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    Fixed it for ya :p
  6. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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  7. everlong

    everlong Rookie

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    Why does anybody watch ESPN's coverage minus not having NFLN?
  8. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    I'm not saying Kiper doesn't do a good job of making lists of players and height, weight 40 time etc.

    But he's never played football or worked for a football team as far as i can tell. So what are his criteria for putting one guy ahead of another?

    If a coach finds a steady unheralded player and wants to grab him before anyone else gets the same idea, the last thing he is going to do is tell Kiper, because it will be all over the media.

    BB actually wanted to hire Joel Buschbaum, the man responsible for creating the whole industry Kiper has taken up. I don't notice him consulting Kiper, though i may have missed something. I'm sure at least one coach was keeping an eye on this kid, the coaching and scouting fraternity is pretty tight and hard to keep secrets within, I'm guessing.

    Notice Gruden had a positive quote from Coach Zook when Kiper was stymied. Ex-coach Gruden.
  9. NEP4Life

    NEP4Life Rookie

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  10. Brady'sButtBoy

    Brady'sButtBoy Rookie

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    Hey, I hope you're right. Your assessment here makes sense. But NFP, among others, didn't even list Wilson among the 30+ safeties rated for the draft - half of which weren't likely to be drafted at all.

    I don't complain about BB's picks - I give them and BB some time - but this pick is so far off primarily because of the talent still on the board that had to be rated much, much higher even by the Pats. There were still several 1st round talents hanging around when Wilson was picked. That's what makes this a deflating pick. Vinny Curry or Tavin Wilson? Rueben Randle or Wilson? I could go on the point is obvious...
  11. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't know. I am still waiting Andre "Koko B" Ware to change the way the QB position is played.
  12. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    That was pretty funny, especially Keith Olbermann's mustache.

    Tobin was obviously being an a hole and I'm not disputing Kiper's value as a compiler of draft information, I just don't think he knows what teams look for.

    I can't imagine it's too difficult to come up with consensus first round picks, but I don't know about accuracy after that.
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2012
  13. MrNathanDrake

    MrNathanDrake Rookie

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    we could've used some DLine depth... Reyes, Still, Ta'Amu... not that they'd be a superstar pro bowler... but we need more big bodies on that line...
  14. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    They're probably right on most of them, but do you think they scout like a pro team does? I imagine pro scouts were going there and looking on film multiple times to see Mercilus and Jarvon jenkins and out of the corner of their eye kept noticing an unspectacular but steady CB/safety. Guys like BJGE and Welker weren't picked either.

    I'm sure these guys talk and BB saw some otrher team looking at this steady player and he needed a steady fs type (we sure as hell do).

    I mean this is not spectacular, but the guy seems to produce.

    Plus, he's supposed to be an ace gunner.

    So, assuming this guy gives us the most value right away in the secondary, certainly steady, let's presume coachable, why would we care how media guides rated him?

    Pro scouts find players while looking at someone else all the time.
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2012
  15. aluminum seats

    aluminum seats Rookie

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    This is one of those picks it's sort of pointless to analyze too much. If he turns out to be a good player, then great. But obviously you can't look too deeply at a pick like this right away from a strategic--should have traded down and still gotten him, should have picked somebody else, etc.--perspective. Because who knows. It's a wait and see kind of thing. Move along.
  16. fair catch fryar

    fair catch fryar Rookie

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    Basically it comes down to Bill Belichick versus Mel Kiper. Even though I've definitely become much more critical of BB the last few years this really is a "no brainer". I've never heard of the kid, but I also knew nothing of Devin McCourty either. He could be another Butler or Wheatley, but apparently there were no better options.
  17. Peter Pat

    Peter Pat Rookie

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    Even if he turns out to be Ronnie Lott, it is still an awful pick. Even if the Pats heard. other teams think he was moving up their draft boards it was still an awfull pick. For this player to go anywhere near the 2nd means the pats did not optimize their value.

    Than when you combine that with a wierd trade of a 2 for a low 3 and a low 5, this was a horrible night all around for the Pats. hell they probably could have drafted ilson with the low 5th they got a for a 2. 2nd rd draft picks are valuable commodities, BB traded it away like it had herpes. Love day 1, hate day 2.
  18. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    He did it because you and a few other fans were too happy after last night.
  19. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't know if it's as much against Kiper personally, as he probably seems to do around the same percentage wise as most of the other draft 'experts.'

    I think it's more about Belichick and his staff doing things their way, kind of along the vein that Michael Holley's "War Room" speaks of. There are many times where Belichick disagrees with most of the other analysts, and he tends to rate players differently.

    There's no way that Kiper can have any clue about some of the more un recognizable players in the draft, those who are less known. There's also no way that Kiper knows anything about how our specific needs are looked at, and how the player may project into our scheme here.

    We've seen plenty of WTF picks before, so I'm not going to worry too much about it; though I will admit that my humble fandom point of view wanted someone else.
  20. Why?PJ

    Why?PJ Rookie

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    because you're such an nfl insider you obviously have no free time and are actively scouting players for NFl teams.... oh wait, you aren't.

    Mel Kiper, and to be honest, any of these talking heads that never played or worked for an NFL team are just journalists, with all the total cluelessness that implies. They have zero clue what any NFL teams are looking for, and never will.

    So sorry, but everything you are relying on with what you said comes from outsiders, who just don't have a clue, or do we really need to go through the lists of players these morons missed out totally on.

    remember, those that can't teach. Those that can't teach, report. These are bottom of the barrel people.
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2012
  21. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    So, it's not about the team, it's about the perfect draft board?

    I myself would take Lott and be happy.
  22. Patriot Missile

    Patriot Missile Rookie

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    I don't agree with a lot of Kipers views but I do at least recognize him as one of the pioneers of the NFL draft coverage. The guy has a great memory and for him to put the names of just about every player into his head has always amazed me. Dude is an encyclopedia but he's got a lot of inaccurate wikopedia in some of his analysis of these players. Especially when it come to the Patriots who are 1 of a kind.

    I don't think he is privy to the coaches like he used to be but he does has all the access all the footage and his is paid to attend games and commentate. Personally I like other guys better out there but because of his long history in his job he will always be relevant. And deservedly so.
  23. Why?PJ

    Why?PJ Rookie

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    he never had any insider knowledge. No one employed by any NFL team has told him anything, and it has been made rather clear they all hate his guts. Can't blame them.
  24. cmasspatsfan

    cmasspatsfan Rookie

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    Im surprised in this day and age of the internet and instant information that they still trot Mel Kiper out there every year. Hes just rating talent and has no clue how to build a team or more specifically how BB builds a team. He was useful and actually interesting back 20 years or so ago but who really needs mel freaking Kiper today.
  25. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You can hate the player that was picked, but the position is indisputably a huge need.
    We are almost desperate for S help. On second thought take out the almost.
  26. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The thing that aggravates me about Kiper Jr is that if someone disagrees with his opinion, he stares directly at them, raises his voice and starts to become argumentative rather than discuss topics/players. Talking loudly doesn't make you right, it makes you look like a self absorbed simpleton incapable of debating.
  27. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Wait. Did you honestly say if he turns out to be a HOFer and we would have lost him by trading down, it was a terrible pick?
    How do you justify that opinion?
  28. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Kiper has his board which is based on his abstraction of talent. The Patriots have their board based on talent. However the analysis for the Patriots includes how a player fits THEIR SCHEME and THEIR LOCKER ROOM. Kiper little book doesn't and really can't factor that in for 32 teams.

    When Kiper criticizes a team when the diverge from his board it is silly since he doesn't know a teams scheme and loker room needs as well as teams with competent management and team philosophy.


    BTW making the Patriots roster is a lot tougher than making a lot of other rosters.
  29. cmasspatsfan

    cmasspatsfan Rookie

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    If he turns out to be Ronnie Lott BB will be hailed as a genious and I think most would agree. Dont understand your reasoning, BB doesnt pick binkies, he builds super bowl contending teams.
  30. serifyn

    serifyn Rookie

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    Belichick like smart, Versatile and Coachable players who love to study the game, this kid looks like he falls under that catagory.

    you can go out there and get a horse who has all of the measurables but none of the dedication and have him running around lost back there when adjustments need to be made, or you can have a guy who who puts the extra time in, learns all of the facets of the defense and is in the right place in the right time to make a play, that is what this is all about.

    Guys are rising and falling all the time during the draft process, 3 months ago, Chandler Jones was a rated as a 3rd or 4th round pick, yet he is a pick many people are happy about today.

    I trust Belichick and the Scouting Staff, there was many other players available who im sure would have been a more flashy pick, but rest assured, Belichick made this pick instead of them because he feels that this move makes his team better than another pick at the same draft spot would have.
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