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Do you "blame" one side more for the CBA talks getting to this point?


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Asking for your support
 

Do you blame one side more than the other for the current status of the CBA talks?

  • I mostly blame the players.

    Votes: 44 38.9%
  • I mostly blame the owners.

    Votes: 33 29.2%
  • I blame both sides about equally.

    Votes: 36 31.9%

  • Total voters
    113
  • Poll closed .
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I can guarantee you it doesn't work the way upstater persists in portraying it...

The TV revenues would be paid whether games were played this season or not. That is the kind of savvy business guys who grew this league into a $9B entity would do. The owners were never going to be able to access more than their % of the cut. The players would have to wait until they played to access theirs, be that in 2011 or 2012 when the owners also planned to increase the value of the entire pie from which all %'s flow with the addition of 32 more games to be sold to TV networks (making it easier to make up for lost product without remotely making anyone play for free...).

The only thing the league should be afraid of is a jury trial with upstater impaneled... Of course on the other hand the NFLPA should be afraid of a jury trial if people who get it populate the panel...

I can't see how anything you wrote here contradicts what I said. If TV revenues are paid whether there are games or not, why the heck did the networks agree to that? I'll tell you why. Because either there was a quid pro quo on the back end (free product when the league began lay again) or else that was money that COULD have been paid up front over the course of the previous years. How do I know this? Because the networks are publicly traded companies that have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders. They are not in the business of paying billions for nada. There's always a catch.

How do you explain it?

AND, you're saying my interpretation is wrong, and yet NFL lawyers were even quoted as saying that they even expected the deal would not hold up under scrutiny. They used it for leverage to cow the union. That's it. But the fact they used it for leverage at all and now it backfired makes them seem suspect insofar as the promise to maximize revenues seems hollow now.
 
From some of the comments I've read in this and other threads, makes me wonder how much personal politics influence this type of thing. Not interested in making it a flame war or a political thing, just that there are some serious anti-union comments as well as some owner comments that seem to reflect a bitterness towards capitalism, and how both those types of comments get in the way of objective analysis on the issue.

It's amazing how evenly split the vote is too. 13 blame players, 12 blame owners, 13 blame both. Thank goodness it's not an election or we'd be talking about hanging chads and how much Florida sucks.

Politics should be totally ignored in this case. The mantra of any union is an honest day's pay for an honest day's work. Obviously, that kind of thing isn't at play when we're talking about the NFL.
 
So as not to sway the vote, I'll leave the question without comment.

It is obvious after yesterday that the NFLPA was never going to agree on a CBA. They wanted to go to court, Smith needed to go to court to solidify his reputation as a prick.

The owners suck, the player suck more.
 
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Blame both, this could all be worked out civilly, but they chose not to..

It is a clusterf..ck of great proportions..
 
Both sides share the blame. This isn't a large corporation denying their minimum wage workers a decent cost of living increase. It is a battle of billionaires vs. millionaires fighting over ridiculous amounts of money. The ONLY people I feel sorry for in this fight are the players at the bottom of the roster in terms of salary and the former players who retired before players got paid ridiculous amounts of money and do not get decent enough pensions. Most of the other people involved are acting on either greed, pride, or stupidity.
 
I assign the locus of control of this situation to the owners primarily. They have the most management-friendly labor agreement of all four leagues and they want more. And there's nothing unAmerican about the pursuit of profit or anything, but most aspects of the current labor agreement seem to me to favor the owners, and they still want a $1B giveback. For example, it favors the owners substantially that players can't get really paid until their second contract, which is generally after four years post-draft, when the average career in the NFL lasts about four years.
 
If the players were asking for something unreasonable then i'd place blame on them, however in this instance the owners want revenue sharing but refuse to let the players know how much money is being made, which is completely unreasonable, and given the fact that they already violated the current deal by getting Direct TV to pay them more for NO FOOTBALL I can see why the players would no longer go on trust alone. Beyond that it makes no sense at all that the owners would refuse to open their books if those books would prove the case they are pleading. If the owners weren't looking for revenue sharing and instead offered the players a yearly lump sum of money that wasn't dependent upon percentages then there would be no need to know how much they really made, but instead the owners want it both ways, they want players to take a share of a money pie but refuse to let them see how big that pie really is.


What the owners want is to crush the players, and i applaud the players for standing up to them. I'd love to see football this fall but if it isn't there and the owners stick to their refusal to say how much they make then I support the players in refusing to make the deal.
 
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I have a new villain, for y'all.

The Players have a new NFLPA head honcho and chief strategist and head negotiator.

He needs to prove he is a "tough guy". Like every new Union Boss, I don't doubt that he was partially responsible for not letting an agreement go forward.
 
I have a new villain, for y'all.

The Players have a new NFLPA head honcho and chief strategist and head negotiator.

He needs to prove he is a "tough guy". Like every new Union Boss, I don't doubt that he was partially responsible for not letting an agreement go forward.

The villain is Roger Goodell. You trust the guy that instigated Spygate? He's evil.
 
I have no idea who to blame to be honest. One minute I want to blame the NFLPA & the players, the next the Owners, then the NFL then all of the aforementioned.
 
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I voted both, but in reality right now its neither. Its March. As long as there's players on the field in September and they ain't replacements, who cares? The only thing I'm 100% sure of is that whatever the final settlement is, it won't include any money for me.

Of course if the Pats' campaign for #4 is derailed or likely to end up with an asterisk next to it because there's a bunch of scrubs playing, then I'll be first in line with a pitchfork and ready to hang 'em all, owners and players.
 
The villain is Roger Goodell. You trust the guy that instigated Spygate? He's evil.

He is evil and a colossal failure.

Tagliabue would not have allowed this to happen, no way, no how.
 
Blame Canada
 
maybe it's just because I'm an accountant, but I think that it's completely legitimate for the NFLPA to review the audited financial statements as they've requested. The NFL asserts that there must be a change from the previous deal due to some vague notions of financial difficulties. If that is the case, then they should have nothing to hide. Just like if an investor wants to invest in a company or if a bank is considering a large loan, they naturally want to see audited financials (what I do for a living). It's an expectation, and the owners are concealing that critical information, which is suspicious. If there is nothing to hide, then let them see that the NFL needs the players to take a smaller cut. The numbers won't lie.
 
I blame everyone, but if what Pash said was true, I blame the players more. They are being stubborn.
 
maybe it's just because I'm an accountant, but I think that it's completely legitimate for the NFLPA to review the audited financial statements as they've requested. The NFL asserts that there must be a change from the previous deal due to some vague notions of financial difficulties. If that is the case, then they should have nothing to hide. Just like if an investor wants to invest in a company or if a bank is considering a large loan, they naturally want to see audited financials (what I do for a living). It's an expectation, and the owners are concealing that critical information, which is suspicious. If there is nothing to hide, then let them see that the NFL needs the players to take a smaller cut. The numbers won't lie.

This issue is nothing more than a red herring. It is a classic PR move. Demand something you know you will never get and then blame the other side for not giving it to you.

The players don't really want to see if the numbers back the owners claims. They were offerred them repeatedly. The owners were willing to give the audited financials to a thrid party agreed to by the players who would review them and summarize them for the players. They would know whether the owners claims were true or not.

The NFLPA has the Green Bay Packers audited financials which show exactly what the owners claimed. They declared it irrelevant. The NBA gave the NBAPA all of its financials showing the league is in bad shape. It hasn't gotten them any closer to an agreement. The players looked at it and said it wasn't their problem. That league is going to have a labor blowup in July that makes the NFL looks like a lovefest.

D Smith can't give back anything of substance unless he is forced to. It was always about settlement through litigation for him unless the owners cracked and gave him status quo. Everyone forgets that he sent players a memo in December telling them the time for a negotiated settlement had passed and to prepare for decertification and litigation.


Both sides are to blame here. From the NFLPA's perspective, this is right where they always wanted it to be, where it had to be from the moment Smith was elected to succeed Upshaw. The owners - they always wanted a lockout until they couldn't access the TV money and then and only then did they decide maybe negotiation would be a good idea.
 
This issue is nothing more than a red herring. It is a classic PR move. Demand something you know you will never get and then blame the other side for not giving it to you.

The players don't really want to see if the numbers back the owners claims. They were offerred them repeatedly. (1)The owners were willing to give the audited financials to a thrid party agreed to by the players who would review them and summarize them for the players. They would know whether the owners claims were true or not.

(2)The NFLPA has the Green Bay Packers audited financials which show exactly what the owners claimed. They declared it irrelevant. (3)The NBA gave the NBAPA all of its financials showing the league is in bad shape. It hasn't gotten them any closer to an agreement. The players looked at it and said it wasn't their problem. That league is going to have a labor blowup in July that makes the NFL looks like a lovefest.

(4)D Smith can't give back anything of substance unless he is forced to. It was always about settlement through litigation for him unless the owners cracked and gave him status quo. Everyone forgets that he sent players a memo in December telling them the time for a negotiated settlement had passed and to prepare for decertification and litigation.


(5)Both sides are to blame here. From the NFLPA's perspective, this is right where they always wanted it to be, where it had to be from the moment Smith was elected to succeed Upshaw. The owners - they always wanted a lockout until they couldn't access the TV money and then and only then did they decide maybe negotiation would be a good idea.

1) I do not understand the fear in showing their financials. Someone explain to me the fear. I look at them all the time in my profession and audit them. Their is nothing secretive about them. They're just financial statements. Why employ a middle man? Now, we're including yet another party who will see the financial statements. Doesn't that defeat the purpose of not letting their financials be seen by other parties? Or is it that they don't want the NFLPA specifically to see them? It still makes no sense why they won't let them be known. It is a simple concept called "Truth in Negotiations." Without it, one party is blind, which is the NFLPA. It means that one party has to place a whole lot of faith in what others are saying instead of interpreting the facts for themselves.

2) That's because it is one of 32 teams (representing about 3% of the league) and in a poor market. The way everyone's interpreting Greenbay is this: the players' salaries as a percentage of team revenues grew from one year to the next, which means that other teams are driving the increase in revenues throughout the league. Teams in the prime markets like New England, Dallas, and New York, for example, are the problem. The conclusion everyone came to after the Green Bay financials were released was that there is significant disparity in the league. And let's not forget that the year before, Green Bay did very well (the other owners were none too happy about that).

3)That really is a shame if that's the case (and if it will lead to the premature demise of basketball (I won't shed a tear)). But we get back to the original question which is whether or not the #1 sport in America is really having financial trouble, especially when players in the NFL get the short end of the stick when in comes to contracts (when compared to lesser sports like baseball and basketball). That's why the burden of proof is on the owners to submit to the NFLPA their evidence.

4) I think this was the case because it's like this: Let's say you're selling a house and you're asking price is $400k, which is above an amount that you figure you'll actually get for it. But you start out higher so that when you come to the middle, it'll be reasonable to you. You expect the other person to come in lower than you (that's natural), but what if they come in at $250k. In that case, you don't even bother negotiating any further. And this is the case in the NFL labor dispute. They are sooo far off that an agreement is unrealistic. Maybe it's a defeatist attitude to go into negotiations with, but it's realism on their part. So in the end, the NFLPA Director, Smith, (probably a sharp guy) knew that this was the reality from preliminary talks. Plus, let's remember that the NFL had all the leverage for a long time (the guaranteed revenues with the TV networks). So the players had an uphill battle in terms of leverage and had to "create" leverage where it was possible. That's why back in December they were talking about de-certification. And let's not forget, guys like Peter King who reported a long time ago how far apart they were. Many reporters said a whole year ago that a lockout was guaranteed. So to think that Smith remarking upon a de-certification was premature is to forget that this was anticipated on a much longer timeline than just the last few months.

5) Amen. But I do place more blame on the owners. Some of the owners (like out in Denver) are willing to reveal their financials. It seems that some of the owners are more willing to push for an accord (also because they're probably having a tougher time financially out there). Maybe this could gather some momentum. In the end, they don't need a mediator; they need an arbitrator. And it's a real shame.
 
The "fear" isn't fear as much as it is lack of trust. The owners don't want the details of their financials showing up on the internet in Michael Silver's yahoo columns (for example) the way the details of meetings have or Deadspin the way some MLB teams financials did. It is a reasonable concern for any private company. They don't trust that the union will keep them confidential. I wouldn't either.
 
The "fear" isn't fear as much as it is lack of trust. The owners don't want the details of their financials showing up on the internet in Michael Silver's yahoo columns (for example) the way the details of meetings have or Deadspin the way some MLB teams financials did. It is a reasonable concern for any private company. They don't trust that the union will keep them confidential. I wouldn't either.

If the owners can't substantiate their claims, then they have no evidence to present to support their assertion. The burden of proof is on them to validate their word. Otherwise, their arguments are for naught. Whether or not, they have to trust that the numbers remain confidential. Pete Kendall suggested that each list of financials not be labeled so that they don't know which is which (at least it's something).

And while we can look at the incident of the MLB teams financials being leaked as a shortcoming. We can also look at this as a pre-established precedent that sports unions examine the financials. The risk that some of the figures are leaked may be a detractor, but that doesn't mean that they should squash the idea altogether. They may not like it, but under the circumstances, situation behooves them to pony of the financials. It's the next logical step after saying that they're in some state of financial distress.

And let's not forget:
#1 Dallas Cowboys - Forbes.com
We do have access to the basic figures on the web. The NFLPA would have additional detail, but who cares if SG&A was leaked? Does anyone care? Nothing really new or juicy would come of how much profit the most profitable team makes. So what added information does actually looking at a balance sheet offer us? Okay, so the world will see what the "Intangible Assets" account shows for the Detriot Lions. Or we can see the Arizona Cardinals income tax expense on their P/L.

But I understand your point. It's a valid one, and it leads me to think that arbitration really is the best (and perhaps only) solution.
 
If the owners can't substantiate their claims, then they have no evidence to present to support their assertion. The burden of proof is on them to validate their word. Otherwise, their arguments are for naught. Whether or not, they have to trust that the numbers remain confidential. Pete Kendall suggested that each list of financials not be labeled so that they don't know which is which (at least it's something).

And while we can look at the incident of the MLB teams financials being leaked as a shortcoming. We can also look at this as a pre-established precedent that sports unions examine the financials. The risk that some of the figures are leaked may be a detractor, but that doesn't mean that they should squash the idea altogether. They may not like it, but under the circumstances, situation behooves them to pony of the financials. It's the next logical step after saying that they're in some state of financial distress.

And, of course, it's not like the players' salaries aren't widely available. Any of you guys want that in your life?
 
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