Do these "little signings" affect comp picks ?

[BelichickFan]

I know comp picks are based on salary, I was wondering how the signings of Mitchell and Caldwell will affect the comp picks we would get from Vinatieri, Givens and Ashworth. I think Miguel once said that if we signed three UFA to any amount we would lose our comp picks - I may be remembering wrong and that doesn't seem logical but I have no idea really.

 

[SeanBruschi54]

I know comp picks are based on salary, I was wondering how the signings of Mitchell and Caldwell will affect the comp picks we would get from Vinatieri, Givens and Ashworth. I think Miguel once said that if we signed three UFA to any amount we would lose our comp picks - I may be remembering wrong and that doesn't seem logical but I have no idea really.

I think player for player slararies have to offset or something close to that but i dont think so. I think if we signed law or something that would be different.

 

[Miguel]

I know comp picks are based on salary, I was wondering how the signings of Mitchell and Caldwell will affect the comp picks we would get from Vinatieri, Givens and Ashworth. I think Miguel once said that if we signed three UFA to any amount we would lose our comp picks - I may be remembering wrong and that doesn't seem logical but I have no idea really.

Will the contracts/production/offseason honors of David Givens, Christian Fauria, Andre Davis, Tim Dwight, Adam Vinatieri, and Matt Chatham outweigh the contracts/production/offseason honors of Reche Caldwell and Mel Mitchell)? I think so. Therefore, it is very likely that the Patriots will receive at least four compensatory picks in the 2007 draft. I think someone (DaBruinz???) figured out that they would be a 4th, a 6th, and two 7ths.

 

[BelichickFan]

That certainly makes sense, Miguel, and I thought that's how it worked. I could have sworn you said a while back that three signings of UFA at any amount would wipe out our comp picks but I probably misunderstood - it wouldn't be the first time.

 

[DaBruinz]

Will the contracts/production/offseason honors of David Givens, Christian Fauria, Andre Davis, Tim Dwight, Adam Vinatieri, and Matt Chatham outweigh the contracts/production/offseason honors of Reche Caldwell and Mel Mitchell)? I think so. Therefore, it is very likely that the Patriots will receive at least four compensatory picks in the 2007 draft. I think someone (DaBruinz???) figured out that they would be a 4th, a 6th, and two 7ths.

Miguel -
I used AdamJt13's pages to approximate what I thought the Pats would get.

Mel Mitchell and Reche Caldwell would off-set the signings of Andre Davis and either Tim Dwight or Matt Chatham or Christian Fauria.

The Pats, unless they sign someone big, would be in line for comp picks for Ashworth, Givens, Vinatieri, and Chatham. Based on the salaries:
David Givens - 4th round pick
Tom Ashworth - 6th round pick
Adam Vinatier - 6th round pick
Tim Dwight or Matt Chatham or Christian Fauria - 7th round pick

Again, these are just prelimindarly predictions. Things could change and will depending on whether the Pats sign anyone else.

 

[Miguel]

That certainly makes sense, Miguel, and I thought that's how it worked. I could have sworn you said a while back that three signings of UFA at any amount would wipe out our comp picks but I probably misunderstood - it wouldn't be the first time.

I may have said that. But that opinion was a snapshot in time. Things have changed since then

 

[AwesomeThreesome]

There are two separate issues:
1. The number of comp picks, if any
2. The draft round for those picks

It is simple to determine the number of picks: The number of comp picks a team gets is the difference between the number of FAs it lost and the number of FAs it signed. In determining the number of comp picks a team gets, it doesn't matter whether a team loses star FAs or not and it doesn't mater how large their contracts are and what their performance was during the season. To determine the number of comp picks, you need to disregard the playing time, dollar amount of contract, etc. None of that matters. It is simply a matter of net loss/net gain in the number of FAs.

On the other hand, the draft round(s) for any comp picks a team is awarded is determined by a formula that uses the dollar amount of the contract and some other factors.

If a team loses star players to free agency and turns around and signs some FA scrubs, it is effectively eliminating what could be valuable comp picks the next year. Take the Jets for example. The Jets lost Lamont Jordan, Kareem McKenzie and Jason Ferguson in free agency. All three of them either were or became starters. The Jets turned around and signed free agents Lance Legree and Barry Gardner. Even though those two were virtually useless (in fact I think Gardner was cut rather quickly), the signing of the two FA scrubs negated any comp picks for McKenzie and Ferguson, even though they were starters. Therefore the Jets only received one comp pick, much to the dismay of Jets fans. Finally it was the dollar value of Jordan's, McKenzie's and Ferguson's contracts vs the dollar value of Legree's and Gardner's that determined where the Jets comp pick would be (3rd round). Had Terry Bradway not signed Gardner, the Jets would have had another comp pick, most likely in the 4th round. Moral of the story: If you lose star players to FA, it is better not to sign fringe players as FAs that year lest you receive no compensation for what you lost.

 

[JR4]

There are two separate issues:
1. The number of comp picks, if any
2. The draft round for those picks

It is simple to determine the number of picks: The number of comp picks a team gets is the difference between the number of FAs it lost and the number of FAs it signed. In determining the number of comp picks a team gets, it doesn't matter whether a team loses star FAs or not and it doesn't mater how large their contracts are and what their performance was during the season. To determine the number of comp picks, you need to disregard the playing time, dollar amount of contract, etc. None of that matters. It is simply a matter of net loss/net gain in the number of FAs.

On the other hand, the draft round(s) for any comp picks a team is awarded is determined by a formula that uses the dollar amount of the contract and
some other factors.

If a team loses star players to free agency and turns around and signs some FA scrubs, it is effectively eliminating what could be valuable comp picks the next year. Take the Jets for example. The Jets lost Lamont Jordan, Kareem McKenzie and Jason Ferguson in free agency. All three of them either were or became starters. The Jets turned around and signed free agents Lance Legree and Barry Gardner. Even though those two were virtually useless (in fact I think Gardner was cut rather quickly), the signing of the two FA scrubs negated any comp picks for McKenzie and Ferguson, even though they were starters. Therefore the Jets only received one comp pick, much to the dismay of Jets fans. Finally it was the dollar value of Jordan's, McKenzie's and Ferguson's contracts vs the dollar value of Legree's and Gardner's that determined where the Jets comp pick would be (3rd round). Had Terry Bradway not signed Gardner, the Jets would have had another comp pick, most likely in the 4th round. Moral of the story: If you lose star players to FA, it is better not to sign fringe players as FAs that year lest you receive no compensation for what you lost.

Thanks! Best explanation I have read on comp picks.

 

[AdamJT13]

It should be noted that there is a minimum salary value for players to qualify for the comp pick equation. This year, it was $690,000. Anyone who signed for less than that did not qualify for the equation -- and that included Kyle Vanden Bosch, who made the Pro Bowl but signed for only $480,000. So if your "FA scrubs" make only $500,000 or $600,000 per season, they won't cancel out the "star players" you lose in free agency.

 

[BelichickFan]

Adam, can you give a definitive answer on this thing ? Do the signings of Caldwell (around $900K a year) and Mitchell (no more than that, I'm sure) just balance out our smaller losses of guys like Fauria and Andre Davis or can they start to eat into the bigger losses ?

I'm totally confused right now

 

[spacecrime]

Take the Jets for example. The Jets lost Lamont Jordan, Kareem McKenzie and Jason Ferguson in free agency. All three of them either were or became starters. The Jets turned around and signed free agents Lance Legree and Barry Gardner. Even though those two were virtually useless (in fact I think Gardner was cut rather quickly), the signing of the two FA scrubs negated any comp picks for McKenzie and Ferguson, even though they were starters. Therefore the Jets only received one comp pick, much to the dismay of Jets fans.

Are you sure about this? Don't the FAs they sign have to make the team? None of these guys are likely to be around when the Jets 53-man roster is announced.

Every team signs a lot of 10-20 FAs to complete their 80-man roster.

 

[Urgent]

Are you sure about this? Don't the FAs they sign have to make the team? None of these guys are likely to be around when the Jets 53-man roster is announced.

Every team signs a lot of 10-20 FAs to complete their 80-man roster.

Yes, the players typically have to make the team.
As an example, the Patriots lost unrestricted free agent Jim Miller, who was signed by another team. However, he was cut before training camp, so the Patriots received no compensation.

Please note that the key here is 'unrestricted' free agents. Players released by the team (McGinest, Starks, Poole, for example) don't count, either for or against. Obviously undrafted free agents do not count. There is also a deadline, I believe in late July. Free agents picked up in August don't count. If the Patriots signed Ty Law, he would not count against them because he was released.

Last year the Patriots signed free agents Doug Flutie, Wesley Mallard, and Chad Scott. Not one counted against their compensatory formula because they were each released.

The simplest way to estimate compensatory picks is simple counting.
To date, the Patriots have lost seven unrestricted free agents (and three released players) and gained two unrestricted free agents.
The maximum number of picks is four.

An overly simple yardstick to guess rounds using average annual salary is:
$1mm or less = 7th
$2mm+ = 6th
$3mm+ = 5th
$4mm+ = 4th
$5mm or more = 3rd

Thus, right now the formula is 7-2 = 5, reduce to four.

 

[Pats726]

The maximum number of picks is four.

An overly simple yardstick to guess rounds using average annual salary is:
$1mm or less = 7th
$2mm+ = 6th
$3mm+ = 5th
$4mm+ = 4th
$5mm or more = 3rd

Thus, right now the formula is 7-2 = 5, reduce to four.

Good insight..and many do not understand about released players..players that were cut versus Free Agents...If a player is cut, why and compensation???
They could have another 2 as well...Flutie and Stone.. and I would assume if there were more, the 4 highes salaried players would be used?? (No adding the other 5th or 6th salary??..makes sense..)

 

[DaBruinz]

Good insight..and many do not understand about released players..players that were cut versus Free Agents...If a player is cut, why and compensation???
They could have another 2 as well...Flutie and Stone.. and I would assume if there were more, the 4 highes salaried players would be used?? (No adding the other 5th or 6th salary??..makes sense..)

Players who have their contracts terminated are not eligible for compensation. They are a different type of free agent and can sign with anyone they want at any time, including PRIOR to the start of the normal free agency.

Yes, Flutie and Stone would both be eligible for compensation to the Patriots provided that their contracts were more than the minimum stated for the comp process (this year 690K). I doubt that Stone will sign a contract for more than the vet minimum. So, its unlikely that he'll be eligible. However, Flutie, if he signed with someone else, would be eligible just because his minimum contract would be around 810K.

 

[DaBruinz]

Yes, the players typically have to make the team.
As an example, the Patriots lost unrestricted free agent Jim Miller, who was signed by another team. However, he was cut before training camp, so the Patriots received no compensation.

Please note that the key here is 'unrestricted' free agents. Players released by the team (McGinest, Starks, Poole, for example) don't count, either for or against. Obviously undrafted free agents do not count. There is also a deadline, I believe in late July. Free agents picked up in August don't count. If the Patriots signed Ty Law, he would not count against them because he was released.

Last year the Patriots signed free agents Doug Flutie, Wesley Mallard, and Chad Scott. Not one counted against their compensatory formula because they were each released.

The simplest way to estimate compensatory picks is simple counting.
To date, the Patriots have lost seven unrestricted free agents (and three released players) and gained two unrestricted free agents.
The maximum number of picks is four.

An overly simple yardstick to guess rounds using average annual salary is:
$1mm or less = 7th
$2mm+ = 6th
$3mm+ = 5th
$4mm+ = 4th
$5mm or more = 3rd

Thus, right now the formula is 7-2 = 5, reduce to four.

Actually, your yard stick needs to be modified . The break down looks more like this:

For 2005, it looked like this:
up to 1.75 million = 7th rounder
1.76 - 2.75 million = 6th rounder
2.76 - 3.9 million =5th rounder
4-5.5 Million = 4tth rounder.
5.6 + = 3rd rounder.

The reason I mention this is because I believe that the only reason the Pats got a 3rd rounder for Woody was because his playing time, added to his contract bumped it up over the 5.5 mill mark.

Here are articles to help.
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/archive/index.php/t-23611.html
http://s15.invisionfree.com/NFL_Draft_Blitz_V2/ar/t79.htm

The playing time can nudge it up or down. As is seen by Jermane Mayberry, whose contract averaged over 3 million, but only got the Eagles a 6th round pick. His lack of production cost the Eagles about $275K in the computation and lowered the pick from a 5th to a 6th rounder. Where as, Casey Rabach earned the Ravens a 5th rounder because he played and started in all 16 games for the Red Skins, keeping his contract value over the 3 mill mark.