Do our players fit the 4-3 better than the 3-4?

[patriotscpfc]

With more 4-3 play last year from Bill and a lot of the players that he's looked at this year fitting better into the 4-3, are we moving more towards the 4-3, now that more teams are moving towards the 3-4.

Wilfork. I think he could fit either system well.

Warren. He's obviously a 3-4 DE, but could he move into a 4-3 DT? We'd have one hell of a run defense with Wilfork next to Warren.

I think that TBC and Burgess are obviously 4-3 DE's and passrushers.

Mayo, I reckon he'd be a beast in the 4-3.
Guyton, he'd fit the profile of a 4-3 OLB.
Adalius would transfer well to sit opposite Guyton as well.

It would mean moving away from the system that we've used for years, but it'd mean a better fit for a lot of our team. And we would open up a lot more options in the draft. We wouldn't need the 6'4, 260lb, 4.6 40, prototype that Bill likes either if we made the transition.

Hell, anything that may help us get some pressure/hits on the QB would be nice.

 

[Marqui]

Either way, the defense won't be that good with just what we have now.

 

[BritPat]

Mate, I've been saying it for months.

Look at the LB's - Mayo, McKenzie, Guyton, Williams - all are 4-3 LB's, not 3-4 LB's. We have one player suited to 3-4 DE (unless you count Richard but he was a 4-3 DT in College), and the rest are 4-3 DT's. Then you get to Burgess (if he's re-signed), TBC and Ninkovich who are all classic 4-3 DE's. Even Crable and Davis played DE in College.

Then look at who we've targeted in pre-Draft evaluation process - a huge amount of 4-3 DT's, under-sized (by our standard) OLB's that seem much more suited to 4-3, and a shed load of class 4-3 LB's.

There is something afoot at Castle Belichick.....

 

[patriotscpfc]

Definitely.

I think he wants to turn this defense around and go pressure-based like it used to be. He's got one veteran, decent CB and one young CB with stud potential. With 4 decent safeties with variable skills.

I think he goes heavy on the pressure next year.

 

[sbpatfan]

I doubt we switch to the 4-3 as the primary defense this year but if it happened I wouldn't be surprised. You also have to look at all the teams playing the 3-4 now, is it in the majority yet? Less competition for players in the 4-3, especially for the AFC east.

 

[patriotscpfc]

I doubt we switch to the 4-3 as the primary defense this year but if it happened I wouldn't be surprised. You also have to look at all the teams playing the 3-4 now, is it in the majority yet?

It can't be far off now. Another few have converted this year as well.

 

[chevss454]

Mate, I've been saying it for months.

Look at the LB's - Mayo, McKenzie, Guyton, Williams - all are 4-3 LB's, not 3-4 LB's. We have one player suited to 3-4 DE (unless you count Richard but he was a 4-3 DT in College), and the rest are 4-3 DT's. Then you get to Burgess (if he's re-signed), TBC and Ninkovich who are all classic 4-3 DE's. Even Crable and Davis played DE in College.

Then look at who we've targeted in pre-Draft evaluation process - a huge amount of 4-3 DT's, under-sized (by our standard) OLB's that seem much more suited to 4-3, and a shed load of class 4-3 LB's.

There is something afoot at Castle Belichick.....

And just signed former Panthers' DT Lewis. A lot more 4-3 wouldn't surprise me at all. Anything to get pressure...

 

[pats1]

With more 4-3 play last year from Bill and a lot of the players that he's looked at this year fitting better into the 4-3, are we moving more towards the 4-3, now that more teams are moving towards the 3-4.

Wilfork. I think he could fit either system well.

Warren. He's obviously a 3-4 DE, but could he move into a 4-3 DT? We'd have one hell of a run defense with Wilfork next to Warren.

I think that TBC and Burgess are obviously 4-3 DE's and passrushers.

Mayo, I reckon he'd be a beast in the 4-3.
Guyton, he'd fit the profile of a 4-3 OLB.
Adalius would transfer well to sit opposite Guyton as well.

It would mean moving away from the system that we've used for years, but it'd mean a better fit for a lot of our team. And we would open up a lot more options in the draft. We wouldn't need the 6'4, 260lb, 4.6 40, prototype that Bill likes either if we made the transition.

Hell, anything that may help us get some pressure/hits on the QB would be nice.

You're overlooking the fact that Brace and Pryor are also natural 4-3 DTs.

Yes, the Pats have had some problems as of late trying to convert college 4-3 players into professional 3-4 players.

 

[CanadianPat'sFan]

With more 4-3 play last year from Bill and a lot of the players that he's looked at this year fitting better into the 4-3, are we moving more towards the 4-3, now that more teams are moving towards the 3-4.

Wilfork. I think he could fit either system well.

Warren. He's obviously a 3-4 DE, but could he move into a 4-3 DT? We'd have one hell of a run defense with Wilfork next to Warren.

I think that TBC and Burgess are obviously 4-3 DE's and pass rushers.

Mayo, I reckon he'd be a beast in the 4-3.
Guyton, he'd fit the profile of a 4-3 OLB.
Adalius would transfer well to sit opposite Guyton as well.

It would mean moving away from the system that we've used for years, but it'd mean a better fit for a lot of our team. And we would open up a lot more options in the draft. We wouldn't need the 6'4, 260lb, 4.6 40, prototype that Bill likes either if we made the transition.

Hell, anything that may help us get some pressure/hits on the QB would be nice.

I really think Bill is using a hybrid of both systems and finding players who have the versatility to play both. It would improve match up schemes and he could make the decision on what defense he will run after the draft.

 

[BritPat]

I doubt we switch to the 4-3 as the primary defense this year but if it happened I wouldn't be surprised. You also have to look at all the teams playing the 3-4 now, is it in the majority yet? Less competition for players in the 4-3, especially for the AFC east.

14 teams playing 3-4 in the league as of now (although we played much more snaps in the 4-3 last year).

It just makes too much sense not to move back to the 4-3. It's easier to find fits for the scheme and get better value when drafting.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Interesting thread and replies... last year may have been a transitional year in more ways than one.

 

[PatsFaninME]

I doubt Belichick would ever completely abandon the 3-4 but there are a few signs that favor this argument.

1) More teams shifting to 3-4 and Belichick is not a mainstream guy so he may "go against the grain".

2) Belichick has used the 4-3 formation more and more each of the last couple years.

3) Belichink has been drafting guys who were versatile enough to play in multipl formations.

Either way, who better to put your trust in than Coach Belichick. Who, when all is said and done, will have been proven to be the greatest coach the league has ever had. Go Pats.

 

[patsinthesnow]

This will probably just start an argument since there's no definite answer, but what defense do you guys find better, the 3-4 or 4-3?

BritPat, you have ALOT of evidence that points to the transition.

All I remember is SB42 and the 4-3 Giants Defense and their pressure they got.

 

[RayClay]

Even Crable and Davis played DE in College.

As did Vrabel, Bruschi, McGinest and Colvin.

wasn't sure about Colvin, but this is from his patriots.com college section.

Led defensive line with 71 total tackles

 

[RayClay]

Either way, the defense won't be that good with just what we have now.

This is the answer. We need a couple impact players in the front seven.

Players like TBC and Burgess need to be flexible and we need a top player at the DE/OLB spot added.

 

[Fencer]

As did Vrabel, Bruschi, McGinest and Colvin.

wasn't sure about Colvin, but this is from his patriots.com college section.

I used to joke that the whole Front 7, pretty much, was DEs.

Bruschi, at ILB, was a college DE.
All the OLBs played DE at times and/or had done so in college.
All the DEs were DEs (duh).
Pretty much every NT except Ted Washington played or at least practiced some at DE.

 

[ALP]

what makes mayo a better 4-3 LB then a 3-4 LB?

what makes warren a better 4-3 DT than a 3-4 DE?

what makes wilfork a better 4-3 DT than a 3-4 NT?


just trying to get to the bottom of the OP's point

to me it seems that our lb's are a weak core, b/c few have panned out, and the ones that panned out most just fit in a 4-3 better, it just turned out that way

but if you look at the strong suits of our front seven, there is not reason to say we are switching to the 4-3.....and backups are just the best and cheapest players available, i dont think u can base an argument on them

 

[jays52]

In my opinion, the short answer is no. There's a lot more to building a defense than simply the front seven, and this needs to be taken into account. Also, I think that we need to do a better job identifying stop gaps and core players. Here's my two coppers on the matter:

During the height of the NE defense, it had the best defensive line in the NFL. One could even make a case for the greatest 34 D-Line in league history. That level of dominance is rare. With the proliferation of the 34, and more specifically the 2-gap 34, it is becoming increasingly more difficult to find top tier tallent late in the draft. So, you make due with what you have and add situational players like Pryor until you have an opportunity to take a legit fit difference maker. Wilfork and Warren are still the best in the NFL at their respective positions, and this is often overlooked.

The backers need to be improved. No doubting this. That said, they are only a Mike and a Sam away from being a damn fine group. Jerod Mayo is a prototypical 34 Will. He would be marginally less effective as a 43 Mike. Guyton in respect to the current roster is better suited as a 43 Will, but has enough sand to be effective situationally in the 34. He's basically a Tampa-2 Mike, and is a very solid passing situation backer. I like McKenzie as a 34 Mike or 43 Sam, but I think he is a little too tight in the hips for the 43. I like him a lot in the 34. Outside, I think TBC is a decent Jack/Joker but the team could use a better athlete there to counter the spread heavy offenses that are multiplying like jackrabbits around the league. They need a Sam.

The defensive backfield, however, is the best indicator of intent. Bodden: press corner. Butler: ditto. Meriweather: Prototypical 34 FS. Chung: Prototypical 34 SS. One of the most important positions in the 34 is the SS. Considering the responsibilities of the Sam backer, the SS is a cornerstone of the defense. They play the TE a lot, play alot of run support, cover a large zone, and are tone setters. Chung is a perfect fit for this position, and would be really poor in a 43. Last year's draft said it all.

Finally, the 34 is the thinking man's defense. It is also the most flexible D in respect to personell. Special teams, situational roster, defensive calls, all are exponentially more flexible when the team is built around the 34. Can they play the 43? Absolutely. Are they clearly designed to be a 34? Yes.

 

[WhiZa]

I started this same thread in the draft forum and got lambasted I've been saying since the Pats interest in Peppers and the resigning of TBC, all signs point to a 4-3 next year. The 3-4 isn't going away though. The Pats have enough versatile players on the roster to play both.

 

[bucky]

I think that TBC and Burgess are obviously 4-3 DE's and passrushers.

Don't know where this is coming from. TBC has played in a 34 his entire NFL career. He's weak against the run as is, he'd be a serious liability there as a 43 DE. TBC wouldn't fit well into the 43. And neither would Ninkovich, but that's a rather minor point.

Wilfork would fit the 4-3, but then he'd just be an overpaid DT. He's getting the big bucks to play NT.

By the way, I don't think it's just a coincidence that both Wilfork and TBC agreed to their contracts after Peppers declared he was going to the Bears. I think the Pats made a real push for him and considered the conversion. They would have reconsidered the money given to both Vince and TBC had Peppers signed. But now they've pretty much put their money on the 3-4.

For what it's worth, if we were to switch to a 43, we'd still be in need of a Sam linebacker and at least 1 43 DE.