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Disorderly Conduct

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatsFanInVa, Aug 9, 2009.

  1. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What it is:
    - Shouting at a police officer in your own home, if there are a half-dozen people on the sidewalk.

    What it is not:
    - Disrupting a public meeting specifically called to exchange views and information on public policy; shouting down elected representatives in the completion of their duties, among hundreds of constituents gathered for that purpose.

    That's the brownshirts for ya!

    PFnV
     
  2. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    #12 Jersey

    I think Gates, baby that he was, should never have been arrested and the 'free speech" at these meetings borders on disorderly conduct. That said, I wonder if we all can reflect back to the days when Code Pink disrupted congressional sessions, and liberal gangs shouted down any and all conservative speakers across Americas campuses. Were you in the ‚Äúdissent is the highest form of patriotism‚ÄĚ camp or in the "let the citizens have their say" camp?
     
  3. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Truth be told, "code pink" to me is a phrase I vaguely associate w/the left, and couldn't tell you if it was 80s, 90s, or 2000s, breast cancer, gay rights, or anti-Iraq; I tend not to focus on the fringes until they are the "main story". That said, if they are disrupting Congress, as in, bursting in and shouting down congressmen so business can't be done, of course they need to spend a night in the cooler, and that's probably part of the point.

    In my youth (the 80s) I did some activism, and by that time, they already had lists of who wanted to be arrested, who didn't, all the activists said "Okay everybody getting arrested sit down in the street right here," etc. Of course there was the polite protesting and there was the stuff not on the program, and from the 90s onward when starbucks for some reason became the target of protest, it looks to have taken on more spontaneity.

    Since my youthfuller days, I've always been a big defender of the right to free speech, but I've actually never seen a protest like this, where the whole point is to deprive those who are present for information of their right to free speech and assembly. I certainly have never been involved with sideshows like the death threats to SEIU, etc.

    I never was in a protest that was aimed at impeding public civic participation. It's like "protesting" the elections by beating up voters if they cast a vote. You can paint it as "protest", but it's certainly not patriotic.

    Now, all that said: the inherent problem with a comparison such as began this post, or a second comparison such as you bring up, is that you will say "were you one of those people saying protest is patriotic..." and I will say "were you one of those people insisting that protest is antidemocratic..." rinse, repeat.

    That's one big reason I confined the comparison to something we seemed to have so much recent sentiment against, the right of a professor to shout on his own front porch, with a handful of onlookers around. That's disorderly, but this stuff isn't? Huh wha?

    So, point taken and returned: it's all political theatre until/unless someone gets hurt. And at the rate the insurance co. goon squad is going, someone will. I've got a thread questioning the tactical wisdom of this line of attack, if you want to go that way.

    I do have a real problem with the idea that shouting and chanting over debate is the way to handle the health care issue, but again, that's addressed in the next thread over.

    This looks last-ditchy, but just about everything the Right has tried lately looks like panicked reaction... a lot of it has a "me-too" flavor to it as well, but I suppose that's to be expected in a more conservative party that understands its appeal is more to older than younger people. Their activists would be right on the leading edge if the landscape were defined by advances in knitting technology, but it's just not the case. So Obama does a pretty impressive melding of old-style community organizing with newfangled social media, and wins an election.... and a Republican governor realizes she can quit her job and tweet more. They don't quite "get it," but they can imitate what they imagine the left has been doing all these years... A lot of the time it harks back to bad memories of hippies taking over in the 60s and is not relevant to a lot of people... that's just my impression, but admittedly, I am biased.

    PFnV
     
  4. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    How bout left wing union thugs assulting people?
     
  5. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    Guess you've never been to or heard of a college campus where a conservative has gone to speak, only to be shouted down and drowned out by a *very* well orchestrated corps of out-of-town professional disruptors. So much for free speech from the Left.



    Carry on.


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  6. PatsFanInMaine

    PatsFanInMaine Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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  7. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    The Lefties are in a panic. Meltdown is coming. Hillary tried to ram it through in her back-room cabals; Pelosi/Reid/Obama are trying to do it by sheer force of numbers in the Congress. Pray for the Blue Dogs to defend their title. We don't need Cuban or Canadian style rationed, sub-standard medical care in America. It will be the end of America.



    //
     
  8. patsfan13

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    Funny Libs are whining about not being able to debate the issues.......funny since BO wanted to ram this turkey through before August, some debate huh? Hell they still haven't even read the bill.....Hell of a way to decide the fate of 17% of the economy.


    Truth is the dems don't want a debate they can't handle a real debate.
     
  9. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The Movement Is Growing

    God Willing We Will Win
     
  10. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You know "they" haven't read the bill how, exactly?
     
  11. DarrylS

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    Not sure if you ever saw a debate or participated in one, but a difficult task when you are getting shouted down.. so who does not want a debate????

    How do you know who has read or not read the bill???? Betcha it came for some Glenn Beck blog... in reality they probably do not read all 1000+ pages, that is what they have staff for...

    Remember the whine from the right when they claimed they wanted to delay the Sotomayer vote, because they wanted to read and "study" all of her decisions... do you really believe that these senators read all her decisions?? It is all bullshyt, and situational politics...
     
  12. patsfan13

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    Well because they said they hadn't read the bill in public forums, A Specter for example, he was quite indignant, he has aides to do that.
     
  13. patsfan13

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    The union guys are doing the shouting and the reps won't answer legit questions.

    I thought you guys were big on community organizing...

    See the vid from rep Scott when asked a question by a doctor from his district, he has a meltdown. What an arrogant POS.
     
  14. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Oh okay I understand. You believe that the 535 members of Congress typically personally read every word of every bill that is floated, no cliff notes from the aides. I forgot what you guys think out there.

    Living and working in Washington, I do not think this. Though it's not the case anymore, I've known some of the aides. That's why you need some damn focused people in the offices of those who really weigh in (rather than showing up and voting as they're told by one of the 2 parties.)

    The heavy lifting gets done in committee and by bill sponsors, and by the aides of those who plan to stake out a thorough position of one side or the other (and those particular congressmen and senators make sure they are well briefed, or in many cases, yes, read the whole bill in its entirety.)

    Adding to that fact, what he said a week ago may not be true today, and what he said a month ago may not be true and may not have been true for some time. So when did Specter last make this statement?

    But you really believe that all 535 congressmen and senators read every word of most legislation?

    That's just funny, where I live.

    PFnV
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2009
  15. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well if you are proposing to take over 17% of the economy and make life and death decisions it woudl be nice if you knew what was in the bill before voting on it?????


    After BO tried to push this through in July without ANY public hearings.


    That is total BS, on the part of the democrats.
     
  16. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    So really it's a matter of going slower...

    Well, that makes sense. You always want your opponent to go slower when you lose.

    I've actually had my own "tactical" concern about the idea of taking on several large-scale issues at one time. But what we saw from the moment of his inauguration (before, actually,) was that the right was not only ready to paint any program as marxist, but have also taken the unprecedented step of trying to paint the president as a foreigner (or to paint his inauguration as not fulfilling the letter of the law, based on fumbled lines on behalf of the justice administering the oath.) In other words, they were not only instantly in opposition to any progress, they were floating test balloons for a putsch while they were at it.

    In such a climate, less than a full-steam-ahead approach seems likely to have yielded the same results: Accusations that what was underway was full steam ahead, that Obama is a marxist from Kenya or Indonesia, and that he's not a real president anyway.

    So since the level of resistance and vitriol was likely identical, I think the calculation was that he may as well take on the major issues of our time. So far he's done just that. He knows he'll be judged on the success of his programs, and the Republicans have made the calculation that the only strategy is to rely on hysteria and fearmongering.

    A little more than a year from now, if historic trends hold true, Obama will lose a lot of congressional allies. THe success of his programs at that time will determine if that historic trend occurs, or whether it will be reversed in the face of positive policy traction.

    The notion of the winning party governing is not going to go away, however. 2010 will be a referendum.

    PFnV
     
  17. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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  18. godef

    godef In the Starting Line-Up

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    I disagree. Gates was borderline disorderly conduct and I agree he shouldn't have been arrested. What has happened at these town meetings was disorderly conduct, and there should have been arrests. This is NOT "free speech" (you quoted it), and this is NOT reasonable "dissent", not when the primary purpose is to disrupt the town meeting in order to prevent others from learning more about the healthcare issues. In effect, their civil rights were violated. Typical GOP MO.

    And cut the crap about how "gangs shouted down any and all conservative speakers across Americas campuses." This doesn't always happen, and when it does, it goes either way, if a conservative school even allows liberal guest speakers.
     
  19. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    They said they haven't. "Don't have time", they say. WTH.



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  20. DarrylS

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    Once again one act does not denote community organizing... CO is a method, not guerilla warfare... this method is usually not very successful.
     

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