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Discussion Topic: Freedom

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by E1Downey, Nov 9, 2012.

  1. E1Downey

    E1Downey Rookie

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    Been thinking about this a lot lately.
    I've heard plenty of people insisting that America is dying because her freedom is dying. Some go as far as saying America and her freedom aren't dying, but already dead.

    Turn the channel or go to the next blog and you find people insisting that there are people thousands of miles away that want to kill us because we are so free.

    Why would freedom haters waste their time with us if our freedom is dead?

    There's clearly a difference of opinion here.

    There are obviously different levels of freedom and that one man may e happy with his freedom while another isn't.

    But how do you define it? How do you measure it? How important is it? Did the founders give the best answer?

    How highly should one value freedom when deciding what makes a nation great? Is America thw greatest nation on earth? Is it because of freedom?

    Freedom > Equality? or Equality >Freedom?

    Do we still deserve being called "land of the free"?

    Is it absurd to even ask that?

    Just thought itd be interesting to get everyones take.




    -Sent from the device that is held in my hand-
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
  2. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    First of all, any group of humans who want to kill other people because of the freedoms they have don't deserve to live themselves.

    But I'm not even sure that's true.

    Freedom is something most of us take for granted. I don't think any society is totally free. Heck, corporations convince Americans to buy new cell phones every year or 2. They've been brainwashed to believe that stuff.

    We do all sorts of things due to brainwashing...so how free are truly? If we roamed the plains of this earth 3,000 years ago, you'd prolly be a lot freer....but I'll take what we have.

    I'd say we are THE freest large, modern nation on earth. But prolly not the free-est (?) in absolute terms.
  3. alvinnf

    alvinnf Rookie

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    Freedom is relative and individual, but it's bound by the group in it's adherence and pursuit.

    One can't hate individuals or cultures that are free. They can be jealous and devicive. Not hate.
  4. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    FYI....hate often arises from fear. Some may fear our freedoms and feel threatened.

    if so, tough fuggn poop! Deal with it.
  5. alvinnf

    alvinnf Rookie

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    I think fear drives the fundamentalist approach of the Muslim religion. It evolves to meet the next great evil not just freedom found in the west. Of course it gets honed on us, but that's because it's easier for them. They don't hate freedom, they long for it! They have just been convinced that their freedom is born in the next life.
  6. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No matter how much freedom we lose we will still have more than those that want to kill us, thats why they want to kill us.
  7. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    And if they try, it is they who will die.

    That's the cool part about that issue.
  8. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We have a tremendous number of decisions created by freedom. Some of them are deleterious; the very act of deciding these things is an annoyance, so we each end up with a routine of sorts.

    Take for example toothpaste. I am fairly certain there are 1 or 2 things you can put in toothpaste that really are to my benefit. It can kill the germs that cause bad breath. It can contain fluoride. It can help move the stuck-on food and stains by having little abrasive crystals. Mainly, it's stuff you combine with elbow grease to feel like something significant happened when you mushed the little plastic bristles around on your teeth.

    So how can there be a dozen brands of it, and a dozen different formulas in the larger brands?

    What would become of the person who evaluates and researches every product he routinely buys? Paralysis by analysis.

    So most of us adopt another strategy to curtail this freedom: We go dollar-first, and pick what's on sale or what we have a coupon for. Some select a brand and sub-brand, and religiously buy that one, regardless of price point. Or we pick another qualifier and go by that ("It has to be spearmint and it has to say something very positive about its whitening qualities.") Whatever the trick we use, we all make certain we curtail our own freedoms. I am certain that the philosophers among us will claim that all such exercises of will are a form of freedom.

    Now, examine the cages which we "choose" to live in: we all -- except the wealthy -- must live by the sweat of our brows, so we choose our line of work, our employer, etc. Those who have no such prospects are the only ones we consider to have failed. The rest of us have "found the right fit" or somesuch. Most of us know the fit's not ideal, and most days most people go through something they consider fairly unfulfilling. I am lucky, and have a job most people would think is interesting. I can even call in sick. But ultimately, you can't choose to not have a job and expect something good to come of it, in most cases.

    We've got, as Roger Waters marveled a long time ago when the Brits had only BBC1, BBC2, and ITV, "13 channels of **** on the TV to choose from." Now it's a few hundred channels. Yet there's no content. We're not "free" to watch something of high quality most of the time, because we can channel surf endlessly and end up watching the same show about ancient aliens because other than CNN and our favorite cable infotainment outlet, that's all that's on.

    In every-day terms, freedom serves to give us false hope: There could always be something on on some channel. I could always find this brilliant bargain at some store. I might reduce my grocery bill by $5.

    Similarly in our politics, we are free to choose between the insane party and the sensible party, and each of us has the laundry list of incredibly important things neither will address.

    We are free to speak, which is good, because you don't want to go to jail for muttering something unpopular. But it's all a tower of babel (or more properly babble,) as that most democratizing and freeing new institution, the internet machine, demonstrates. A billion idiots babbling about cats and their nanas and who they hate and why they hate them, and watching "Gandam Style" and "Call Me maybe" parodies over and over and over again.

    So, it is a very good feature to have freedom in your politico-economic system. If you don't have it, there's the potential that it's not insane versus sensible, it's evil versus citizens. Check.

    But in terms of the wonderful things we all get to "choose," meh. You might need three kinds of toothpaste to avoid the monopolistic One Bad Toothpaste effect, but I suspect there's a whole heck of a lot of plain waste in there too.

    Oh, and if you mean freedom to vote? We're trying to get rid of that, as I understand it.

    ::shrug::

    "Just another word for nothin' left to lose..."?

    PFnV
  9. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    Thank God for all the toothpaste choices and the fillers they use PFiVA.
  10. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Generally speaking, freedoms are being lost because the welfare nanny state is growing. Be it by "we know what's better for you than you do" laws, rules, and regulations, or by the fiscal burden of gubmit being imposed on a citzentry, that makes them slaves of said government.

    Just remember...

    [​IMG]
  11. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact On the Roster

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    I will always be free.......kind of like the big black guy in 'the green mile'
  12. PatsFanInVa

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    Oh I'm all for freedom.

    Things like freedom of speech, religion, the press, great. The actual value of them in modern America?

    I dunno. You're not free to say what you want in workplaces. You're free to practice the religion you want, but what happens in your world if you walk into your work in full-on traditional Muslim gear? Um, attitudes toward your shift in beliefs? They might be something short of career-enhancing.

    But most people aren't obsessed by the reality of freedom, only the abstraction.

    Freedom as bumper sticker: Very popular.

    Freedom as daily choice in every matter: illusory.

    Freedom to pick your poison, by and large. Coke or pepsi.

    PFnV
  13. chicowalker

    chicowalker On the Roster

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    What can't you do today that you could do 10 years ago?

    ---------

    America isn't dead, freedom isn't dead. We live our lives largely as we desire.
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2012
  14. E1Downey

    E1Downey Rookie

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    Tell that to the dairy farmer whose farm gets raided by federal agents because the FDA thinks unpasteurized milk is bad for us.

    Tell that to the man that got arrested for using a reservoir to collect rainwater....on his own property!

    Tell that to the man or woman who gets fined hundreds of dollars for driving with a dog that isn't restrained by some safety device.

    Tell that to the woman that depended on her garden on her own property and had it unjustly destroyed by city officials.

    Tell that to the charity groups that are threatened with fine or arrest for trying to FEED THE HOMELESS.

    This is an extremely small list of a few absurd rules-regulations affecting people around the country. Trust me there's plenty more.

    Just because you haven't noticed this incrementalism doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you haven't been affected as of yet doesn't mean you won't in the future.

    Look into it, even just 5-10 minutes worth. I think you may be in for a surprise.
  15. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Then how does it stay on the roof??? :confused:
  16. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You have to train them when they are puppys, I put my dog up in a tree when we go shopping, he stays there until we get home.
  17. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    [​IMG]

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