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Discussion of the War in Iraq

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by bmf31c, Apr 9, 2006.

  1. bmf31c

    bmf31c Rookie

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    Before anyone posts read this carefully. This thread is a Adult converstation, between NEM and myself. It will be full of opinion. If you attack another member of the forum, I will ask for it to be shut down. If you have something to say use some tact and explain your opinion or present your fact.
    Response such as "bmf31c is a big dumb jerk" while basically fact cannot be substantiated and should not be submitted to this thread, start a new one for that.
    I specifically ask that Harry Boy, patriotspride and Turd veer away from this thread. Unless you have something meaningful to add please keep your agendas in other threads.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bmf31c
    Iraq war: We are there, have to complete the mission now




    Not to be argumentitive...but WHY?

    Why , when we really don't know what the mission is? IN fact, it was declared "acomplished" some time ago, if I recall,and since then, the person who declared it "accomplished" has changed what the misssion is, over and over again.

    With what we now know, wouldn't it make more sense to just bring home all of our men, and women, ALIVE, before many more are killed trying to complete a mission that no one even knows what it is?

    Because, IMO, if we stay, we wil be having this same discussion over and over again for many more months, or years...and just think how many more Americans will be killed in that time frame...and, in the end, WE WILLBRING THEM HOME, and nothing in Iraq will have changed.

    Think about it. If YOU care for the troops in Iraq, and I believe you do, why would you want to continue to throw them to the wolves, to die, for what you know to be lies and deceit? WHY?

    BTW, your comments, that we have to complete the mission are the talking point words coming out of the administration. And, you fall into the trap, as so many do.... and I can understand it...but as an intelligent person, who cares for yuor fellow comrades in arms, think about what I said....because if not, we lmight be having this conversation again, a year from now, and the only thing different will be the number of dead Americans. Is that what you really want?

    I do not, and as am AMerican who loves my country, and the troops thaat fight for it's security, I want them home alive NOW...not in body bags.
  2. bmf31c

    bmf31c Rookie

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    You are correct on this. We have liberated Iraq and deposed Saddam, now we have become a peacekeeping force.
    I have expounded on this before but I will do it again. The US Military is great at its mission, we can close in, engage and destroy the enemy. We suck at peacekeeping. That is a UN mission. The problems that we have now are the consequence of not having a unilateral UN agreement to go into Iraq.


    Our depature needs to be coordinated so there is some semblance of order when we leave or the reality is that the whole thing was for naught. We are fighting an insurgency and getting better at it each day. Even though we have been placed in a bad situation, without all the right tools, we have adapted, asked for tools and overcome. Of course, insurgents will come up with new tactics but our evolutions will start becoming faster as well.
    I will say this even losing one troop on the ground was too many. My personal feeling is that, in honor of the fallen we have to make some semblance of a success over there. That being said the quicker we can do that and get our troops home the better.
  3. bmf31c

    bmf31c Rookie

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    A scenario that I cannot get out of my head is that Israel is going to do a pre-emptive strike against Iran very soon. Syria will have no problem allying itself quickly with Iran and we may be stuck right in the middle of a nuclear war.

    A much better job could have been done with a UN Force, especially if some of the Arab countries would have joined in. Would it have been smarter for us to allow them to break the country up into three states? One for each of the big religious factions.

    Interesting point. Most of our problems are regionalized. There are hotspots and then there is the rest of the country, where the forces are respected and treated as liberators and protectors. A lot of the bad is reported by the press and very little of the good makes it way to the papers.
  4. bmf31c

    bmf31c Rookie

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    I hear you, one man's terrorist is another man's patriot. Some people think that the IRA is/was justified in things that they do, others believe they are terrorists.
    I use the term insurgent here because the groups are small and scattered they are all on different sheets of music. In Vietnam the insurgents were all VC. What's a better term for them? Jihadists? Freedomfighters?

    To a certain extent I really agree with you on a personal rather than professional level though. They have been killing each other for thousands of years for patches of "historical" sand. We must be mighty high on ourselves to believe we can teach an old dog new tricks. I guess my point is: Let's help them establish a government, train the National Guard, ensure everybody has access to basic human needs, then bail. Again everything in that last sentence should be done by a UN Force not US.

    Hopefully, that statement won't be true. The people must ensure that we have a leader that will make lemons in lemonade.
  5. bmf31c

    bmf31c Rookie

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    I hear you, I'm just saying the people that are trained to do the job aren't doing it.


    My point is is it reasonable to say that you hear about Civil Affairs projects on Dateline or 20/20 or 60 minutes? About new schools, running water, construction projects? Not really, because those aren't newsworthy to most. That's why I think alot of bad is reported and not alot of good.

    I wouldn't say they are small isolated areas..but they are regionalized. Of course the White House is only going to spin it the way they want too, and the press is going to spin it the way they want. Somewhere in the middle is the truth. Urban areas are the problem, while outlying areas are not. Then again isn't that the situation in most places?
  6. bmf31c

    bmf31c Rookie

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    I think we are closer on this issue than you think. I just think I still am grasping at optimism and you have conceded that I won't happen. It was huge mistake to not wait on the UN.




    Who do you think can lead us out of this? Do you know anything about Jack Reed?
    http://reed.senate.gov/
    I don't get a lot of the news but I am intrigued by him, especially his military background.
    I think the basis of the next election is going to be who can come up with a exit strategy. We will see.
  7. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    The preceeding posts are examples of what this forum used to look like when I signed on the first time. Good to see, again. Very well done.
  8. Turd Furguson

    Turd Furguson Rookie

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    I'm impressed. Intelligent debate without namecalling. Very well done.


    I agree for the most part with bmf31c. We're there and we have to finish the job so that those soldiers who paid the ultimate price will not have done so in vain. We cannot let the press who continually shows us ONLY the negatives that go on there shape our opinion for us. We have to listen to the soldiers who've been there, to the Iraqis who are grateful for us being there etc..... We are doing good work over there. We must remember that this is not an overnight process, America itself took years to run smoothly after British rule.

    I also do not believe that the majority of Insurgents are Iraqis with the exception of those Sunnis who lost their power and fight to try to reclaim it. Most are Al-Qaeda affiliated with Sunni help to try to test the will of the Americans and the everyday Iraqis. If they were regular Iraqis simply fighting an occupying force, they wouldnt be blowing up their own mosques and targeting their own people.
  9. bmf31c

    bmf31c Rookie

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    I tend to agree you with on this. I don't believe there is a strong AQ link in Iraq. There may be a group that call themselves by the same name but I don't believe they are under the same leadership umbrella.
    What NEM is saying and what he is referencing is true. To put it into other terms if the insurgency (or whatever you want to call them) is not wiped out and/or suppressed it will continue to gain strength. Why is that? Because more and more will become sympathetic to the cause. More and more will simply follow the cause. People inherently want to be part of a group. If they can't be part of the contstructive government, they will seek to become part of the militantcy.

    NEM, please get back to my question in the other post. Who is a candidate? Do we need a military guy? I think we do. Tommy Franks? Schwartzkopf? I don't think Colin Powell would or should.
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2006
  10. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The unfortunate thing is that in the Middle East, the Baathists, or the socialists, are the most progressive group at least in terms of their philosophy. It has many sympathizers in the Middle East, though has grown weaker thanks to corrupt leaders like Saddam Hussein. That said, even Saddam, despite his personal corruption and criminal style, put together a fairly modern society with women enjoying relatively equal rights and a developed economy at least in terms of health and education. Also the Baathists, being mostly secular, are the logical opposition to the theocratic regimes of the area.

    Early on, the U.S. (under Reagan) made overtures to the Baathists, at the same time knowing that they were a threat to the US because of their socialist beliefs, because they advocated Arab nationalism and a broad Arab state, and because they would not cede to western demands on a number of issues. Further complicating matters, the Baathists were no more successful than the fundamentalists in setting up civilized governments.

    That said, if given the choice between Islamo-fascists and Baathists, the Baathists are better. They have a lot of moderates in their ranks, and are genuinely interested in developing the Middle East rather than in maintaining the sort of feudal religious system that now exists. They are the more worldly, more educated, and more likely ones to try to put together some sort of democracy, especially since we've destroyed much of Saddam's corrupt leadership.

    As strange as it sounds, I think the Baathist Party should be legalized again in Iraq and we need to make overtures to Syria, and see if anything good can come out of that. At the very least, those overtures would make our religious allies very nervous and might prompt them to sit down together.

    If we took these steps, we would begin to change the dynamic of the Middle East, which might create some new opportunities for dialog. This could set the stage for a peacekeeping force made up of the less religious Arab states, including Syria, Egypt, Jordan, and some of the smaller ones, and it could help us return the region to the pre-invasion state when Iraq helped keep Iran in line.
  11. bmf31c

    bmf31c Rookie

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    I believe that it was said that Iraq had the best national health care system in the world.
  12. Turd Furguson

    Turd Furguson Rookie

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    You may be right. They might not be Al-Qaeda per se, but they could be spin off groups or a part of Al-Zarqawi's operation and in the end, terrorists are terrorists. We're in a war on terror not just a war on Al-Qaeda.
  13. Turd Furguson

    Turd Furguson Rookie

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    How do you enter bold or colored text?
  14. Chevy

    Chevy Rookie

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    Just replace the {} with []

    For bold:

    {b}text goes here{/b}

    Italics:

    {i}text goes here{/i}


    Color: (red, blue, green, etc.)

    {color=xxx}text goes here{/color} ... that is {color=red}text goes here{/color}
  15. Turk

    Turk Rookie

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    Thank You!

    I would like to thank the two main participants of this debate and the rest who have shared their views in the manner that this forum was meant to be.
    I am also very glad to see that the gap is not that wide at all between the two different schools, approaching this subject matter.
    Well done, gentlemen.
  16. Turd Furguson

    Turd Furguson Rookie

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    In the interest of fairness, since I'm very quick on the trigger finger in criticizing NEM when I feel he's gone over the line, I feel its only fair that I compliment him for adding to the discussion and bringing something worthwhile to the table here for discussion. This is the NEM that I'd like to see more of. If the board's tone can stay like this it will be a very worthwhile venture.
  17. Turd Furguson

    Turd Furguson Rookie

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    I never intended to change your mind about the President. Thats your right as an American. Say what you will about him for all I care. Just please leave the generalizations about those who dont hate him out.

    I'll be free to respectfully disagree with you as long as you respectfully disagree with me.

    Fair?

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