Welcome to PatsFans.com

Did Mangini learn anything here?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by AndyJohnson, Mar 3, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    21,845
    Likes Received:
    12
    Ratings:
    +18 / 0 / -1

    Mangini was here to witness the building--and maintaining of a dynasty.
    It would appear that he spent all those years watching film on the players he was given to coach, because his Jets are now taking the EXACT OPPOSITE approach.

    When was the last time BB paid over 5 mill a year for an OL? They did it TWICE, and both are closer to the end of their careers than the beginnings.
    When was the last time the Patriots handed out a blockbuster contract to a guy who had one good year, and outbid everyone because we 'had to have him'?
    When was the last time the Patriots jettisoned 2 young 1st round picks with as much talent as anyone on their team and got mid round picks back?

    When was the last time the Pats acted like depth didnt matter?
    I think this off-season will be the doom of Mangini and Tannenbaum.
  2. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    31,088
    Likes Received:
    29
    Ratings:
    +37 / 2 / -3

    #24 Jersey

    I doubt Mangina cares about building the program right now - he's probably (my opinion) gone after this year is he doesn't win 7 or more games.
  3. fair catch fryar

    fair catch fryar Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2007
    Messages:
    3,106
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    You'd think that the way they've been signing some of these guys that Mangina was a student of the Dan Snyder school of building a successful NFL team.
  4. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ~~~Out of Order~~~ PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    36,491
    Likes Received:
    18
    Ratings:
    +24 / 1 / -0

    #87 Jersey

    Tannembaum is Mangini's buddy but he has an attitude all his own.
    I mean look at who he hired to coach the team ... Mangini.
    Someone whose stature in football is very low on the scale.
    I think it says all we need to know here.
  5. NEPatriot

    NEPatriot Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2004
    Messages:
    7,839
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    Dolphin was the worst team in 07.
    Jet will be the worst team in 08.
  6. SoCal Pmen

    SoCal Pmen Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,990
    Likes Received:
    2
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0

    The general opinion amongst those in the inner circle are that they're trying to build fast now to try to close the gap with the Patriots. In doing so, they may be mortgaging their future. Also, there is certainly a pressure to win now with this staff per PFT and they may be looking for work if they don't make the playoffs next year.
  7. Watson's IQ

    Watson's IQ Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2008
    Messages:
    1,574
    Likes Received:
    5
    Ratings:
    +5 / 0 / -0

    You've hit the nail on my head, I think. A lot of the shine has come off Mangini even one year after his rookie season as HC, and I think the "Mangenius" label has kind of worn thin. I would expect that if the Jets put up another season like this past one, Mangini will be gone, and isn't likely to land another HC job right away. That said, I'm not surprised that he's making all these moves which might net them an extra win or two but are hardly going to make them contenders. I see 8-8 or so as their absolute ceiling, but that's probably enough to save his job, which is probably his primary concern at this point. Still, there's no doubt in my mind that these moves will hurt the Jets ultimately, not help them, unless their ultimate goal is to be mediocre.
  8. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    21,845
    Likes Received:
    12
    Ratings:
    +18 / 0 / -1

    I think adding these players could make them a decent team (6-7 wins) but will mire them in medicority for years to come.
    They bring in Mangini and there 2 superstars they were building the D around, Vilma and Robertson are given away for next to nothing. They are now assembling a team to play strictly the 3-4 while dismantling the one that was assembled to play strictly a 4-3 Tampa2.
    They have wasted at least 3 years of development of the team, and now are going on a 'pay me later' spending spree bringing in 3-4 guys, and expensive not quite young OL.

    What happens when Mangini is fired, and they replace him with a 43 guy?

    Honestly, this comedy of errors could end up with the Jets going 10 years without a winning season.

    Why didn't they rebuild the team for Maniginis system in year 1, instead of year 3?
  9. Jimke

    Jimke Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2006
    Messages:
    3,677
    Likes Received:
    2
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0

    The thing that I find interesting is that the Jets may be trying to fit

    square pegs into round holes. Can Pace and Jenkins play 3-4 defense?

    Moreover, can Woody play play right tackle?
  10. Metaphors

    Metaphors Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2005
    Messages:
    3,670
    Likes Received:
    8
    Ratings:
    +8 / 0 / -0

    The Jets had reasonable talent to build a solid 4-3 defense but are blowing it up to build a 3-4. Jenkins is not a NT so that move baffles me. Pace is fine but a risk at the money he is getting. The OL seems like an odd mix of finese and smashmouth.

    I agree the Jets moves seem like spasms rather than a systematic attempt to build a team. If that is true, look for them to spasm all over McFadden if he falls to #6 (and Thomas Jones to sulk his way out of town before week 1).
  11. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2007
    Messages:
    16,254
    Likes Received:
    8
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    #12 Jersey

    Well he has a whole five games of experience at the position, so the answer is clearly yes.
  12. Terry Glenn is a cowgirl

    Terry Glenn is a cowgirl Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2005
    Messages:
    7,883
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    He learned of his demise... if he doesn't win.
  13. SVN

    SVN Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2005
    Messages:
    22,514
    Likes Received:
    13
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -0

    we all dislike mangini and the jets but iam sure jets fans are happy with the moves he is making.lets be fair, this team has improved than what it was last yr and they did play good defense down the stretch. who knows they might trade up and get matt ryan to complete the 'restructring' of the team
  14. kurtinelson

    kurtinelson Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2004
    Messages:
    2,365
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    Maybe the Jets are gambling on the uncapped years after 2009.
  15. Mangold74

    Mangold74 Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    Messages:
    228
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    The Jets spend two years getting rid of bad contracts and focusing on drafting. They realized that they had major issues on their lines. They went after Faneca who is still one of the best lineman in the league who will completely change the attitude and ability of the entire line. Jenkins has his past issues but everyone knows he has the talent to be a dominating player. I don't think you can argue against either of these moves. They had serious issues on the lines and they went out and got the best two lineman available. I do not believe in the quick fix but they had cap room and spend it wisely. They didn't give 30 million to some overrated wide reciever and safety.

    I do think they overpaid for Woody. I'm not sure if they really expect him to start at RT of he's just going to be the 6th lineman who can play 4 positions. I still expect them to draft a right tackle in the second round. I think they could have gotten Woody a lot cheaper.

    As far as Pace, he has the perfect size (6 5 270) for OLB and he's still young. I really don't know how good he is after one year in the 3-4. I don't think he was worth the money but if they drafted a linebacker and spent 2 years developing him they still would have no pass rush. It's not like no one else was bidding on him.

    In conclusion, I think Mangini learned a lot from Belichick/Pioli. He learned that until you have greats lines you have nothing.
  16. flasox27

    flasox27 Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    757
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    He will learn even more next year when he is on the unemployment line. Too bad there aren't anymore laptops for him to steal so he can get some plays.
  17. DGameguy

    DGameguy Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2006
    Messages:
    538
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    I hope they keep screwing up, fine by me. Two more W's you can count on in the regular season.

    Jenkins can't make it threw two-a-days without getting on the IR.
    I have no idea how Calvin Pace became a priority free agent. He's done next to nothing and he sure isn't worht a twenty-million guarantee.
    Damien Woody would be more successful in the extreme competitive eating league or whatever it's called than the nfl this season.
    Faneca is a great guard but come on...it's a guard, and Ferguson and Mangold regressed last season, so rushers are going to zoom by outside and in.
  18. NoCal Patriot

    NoCal Patriot Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2006
    Messages:
    518
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    Mangini is reacting like a guy on a short leash.He doesn't have time to build a team ,He needs a miracle and thus has decided to throw a Hail Mary
  19. mangenious

    mangenious Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Messages:
    504
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    That rebuilding process goes a lot faster when you fall on the best QB of all time
  20. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    21,845
    Likes Received:
    12
    Ratings:
    +18 / 0 / -1

    I just dont see it.
    Its one thing to look at the lines, its another think to spend boatloads of money on them. The Patriots have built one of the best OLs in the NFL with:
    a 2nd round pick
    a 1st round pick
    a 5th round pick
    an undrafted player they developed
    a 3rd round pick

    They have not signed a FA OL since 2001 when they brought guys in cheaply almost off the scrap heap.

    Its not a matter of Faneca not being good, but what did they pay for a G? Paying that kind of money for a G just throws your cap out of whack.
    Its not that Jenkins is awful but you spend a top 5 pick on the guy he is replacing, he is 5(?) years older, he has never played a 3-4 and he is injury prone.
    Its not that a 2009 4th round pick has no value, but you traded a top 15 pick who is what, 25?, to get it.
    Woody is a ridiculously expensive reach. He moved well for a C, ate himself into being a medicore G, got benched and was thrown in a T due to injuries and you just gave him 5 mill a year. If you seriously think you paid 5 mill for your '6th OL' you should start writing letters requesting the entire front office gets fired.

    Its not like Pace isnt the right size for a 34 OLB, but you paid him as if he were a stud and he has never shown he can be. I mean, come on. The guy was a backup for the CARDINALS, starting 6 games in 3 years before this season. You tout him as the answer to your pass rush, and he had 6.5 sacks last year. He has 14 in 5 seasons. For the money you paid him, he would have to match his 5 year total in sacks each season to be worth it. Think about that. If he cannot figure out how to get as many sacks in 16 games next year as he has been able to muster in 67 porfessional games, you overpaid with that 7 mill a year contract.

    The fact that the trenches win football games does not mean the right thing to do is to spend boatloads of money overpaying guys to play there is smart.
  21. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    21,845
    Likes Received:
    12
    Ratings:
    +18 / 0 / -1

    If you dont realize that Tom Brady is the best QB of alltime BECAUSE he has been on the Patriots and coached by Bill Belichick you may not even realize there is a point, much less be missing it by a mile.
  22. mangenious

    mangenious Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Messages:
    504
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Some how I don't think Brady would have been a scrub with another team and different coaches. The great Belichick made the greatest QB of all time?
  23. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2005
    Messages:
    20,237
    Likes Received:
    33
    Ratings:
    +34 / 0 / -1

    That's all well and good, except that the salary cap will be in place through at least the 2010 season. :singing:
  24. PonyExpress

    PonyExpress Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    4,655
    Likes Received:
    12
    Ratings:
    +12 / 0 / -0

    I think these are very risky moves. they had to overpay these players to get them to play for the NYjets. that would disappoint me if I were a Jet fan, but I would understand that. The bottom line is, the QB situation is murky. If the Jets had a solid Qb sit right now all the other moves would look better. But Clemens is not the answer, and I'm not sure the Jets are willing to admit that. If they stick with Pennington, can he even stay healthy for half the season? If not, Clemens will likely sink the team. IMO the Jets need to draft either Matt Ryan or D. McFadden. If I were the jets I would trade up with Miami and take Ryan. But Mangini won't make a move that risky. He'll just splurge on questionable free agent talent with questionable character. All these guys: Woody, Pace, Jenkins have reputations as 1st class turds. After all his preaching, it looks like Mangini is willing to lower his "character" standards when his @$$ is on the line. So he should just draft McFadden and not beat around the bush. McFadden is the kind of talent, behind that O-line, that could make pennignton serviceable again.
  25. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    21,845
    Likes Received:
    12
    Ratings:
    +18 / 0 / -1

    Who do you think taught him how to play QB in the NFL?
    You do realize that in his first year as a starter BB personally coached Brady right? You do realize that they spend 2+ hours every day going over film, plays, and BB teaching him what defense is and how defenses think and cover, right?
    You do realize that continued in future years, right?

    If Brady were on the Jets coached by Herman Edwards, he may have learned how to come up with a nice quote that will get you on Sportscenter, but he would never have developed the knowledge of the game and QB smarts that he has, at least not as quickly.

    Great players are also a product of coaching. A great coach needs a great student, but a talented player without coaching never gets great.
  26. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    21,845
    Likes Received:
    12
    Ratings:
    +18 / 0 / -1

    You left Faneca out of the character issue, but he acted like a baby in Pittsburgh, demanding a new contract, threatening to hold out, and then telling the Steelers they can f-off when he is a FA because they didnt give him the money early.
  27. LloydBraun

    LloydBraun Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    600
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Is it just me, or does it seem that the MFJ are gonna try and get McFadden?

    They rebuilt the O-line and are spending money on the front 7. Therefore, it makes too much sense that they will go McFadden to team with Thomas Jones.
  28. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2005
    Messages:
    17,518
    Likes Received:
    40
    Ratings:
    +49 / 0 / -1

    #75 Jersey

    Not only that, he's burned his bridges. He needs success now, or he'll never coach again.
  29. mangenious

    mangenious Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Messages:
    504
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    i really disagree with so much of this. For one yes coaching has a lot to do with in player development but so does player motivation, ability and ability to pick up the game. Brady would still be a very good player off the Pats. Show me the offensive player previously developed by the defensive minded Belichick? he played a huge role but to credit him for Brady is blasphemy. before Tom Brady was Tome Brady and was drafted by the Pats he told Kraft that picking him was the greatest decision he had ever made. Dont tell me a player like that does not have an extra edge to him and the michael jordan determination
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2008
  30. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    21,845
    Likes Received:
    12
    Ratings:
    +18 / 0 / -1

    You need to learn to comprehend what you read.
    Brady deserves all of the credit for what he has become. He TOOK the coaching, he worked hard, he made himself the best he can be.
    But, he would not be what he is without the influence of Belichick.
    Belichick is the one who personally coached him. That is a fact. I dont need other examples to prove that Belichick had a tremendous influence on brady.
    It goes beyond just that as well. Many NFL players only become as good as they want to be. No player enters the NFL NFL-ready. There is a ton for them to learn. It is their job ot learn it, some take it seriously, some do not. However, the quality of coaching that you get, and the atmosphere you are in that pushes you or doesnt, demands your best or doesnt, has a large impact.

    Why is it that most of the greatest players in the NFL played for the greatest coaches?
    Please don't tell me you think they were just really smart and drafted better than everyone.

    Players need to be coached. If they are the player that wants to be the best, the coaching they get either helps that or holds them back. Tom Brady came into the NFL knowing next to nothing about being an NFL QB. Of course he developed, worked his ass off, and made himself great. But SOMEONE had to teach him correctly how to be an NFL player, and an NFL QB.
    Do you honestly think that Tom Brady developed his decision-making ability all by himself? What, he was a child prodigy on defenses, coverages, and audibles? He makes decisions within an offensive scheme, because he was taught how to make those decisions. Some QBs cannot learn that, some coaches can teach it as well as others.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page