Did Belichick miss on Taylor Price, the 3rd round pick?

[patchick]

1a) If Price needs a lot of time to get up to speed then the opportunity cost is not having a guy who might be able to produce now.

In theory, but my point was that the Patriots DID still get one of the most immediately productive receivers in the draft despite drafting Price, so the pick didn't cost them that opportunity. And surely no pick costs you the opportunity to sign a UDFA?

 

[Snake Eyes]

In theory, but my point was that the Patriots DID still get one of the most immediately productive receivers in the draft despite drafting Price, so the pick didn't cost them that opportunity. And surely no pick costs you the opportunity to sign a UDFA?

If I spend a 3rd round pick on Price then I can't spend that pick on someone else in the 3rd round, that doesn't necessarily cost me the opportunity to get Seji or Blair White for free but it does cost me the opportunity to get a player that won't be available as a FA.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Perhaps. There are certainly some good ones in this draft class, anyone watching Boise State drop kick Fresno State last night saw two of them.

I see Price as the "next" David Givens; he came out of a run first, second, and third offense where he was required to develop his blocking skill set and not his route tree/defense reading skill set. He's in the system now hopefully improving his weaknesses and working on being more sudden and explosive in his route running, he'll have a significant head start on any new WR.

NE may not need to draft another WR once they've had a chance to reevaluate the two Reserve/Military receivers they stashed last year after the draft - both have some decent wheels. White may be another Woodhead/Edelman hybrid RB/slot WR, while Barnes may be more Tate-like. The question may be whether they will get a chance to see them in the offseason program before the draft, or will have to wait until May/June when it's too late.

But aren't Barnes and White similar to Price, in that they're coming from teams not exactly known for their passing games?

 

[MustaphaM0nd]

Perhaps. There are certainly some good ones in this draft class, anyone watching Boise State drop kick Fresno State last night saw two of them.

I see Price as the "next" David Givens; he came out of a run first, second, and third offense where he was required to develop his blocking skill set and not his route tree/defense reading skill set. He's in the system now hopefully improving his weaknesses and working on being more sudden and explosive in his route running, he'll have a significant head start on any new WR.

NE may not need to draft another WR once they've had a chance to reevaluate the two Reserve/Military receivers they stashed last year after the draft - both have some decent wheels. White may be another Woodhead/Edelman hybrid RB/slot WR, while Barnes may be more Tate-like. The question may be whether they will get a chance to see them in the offseason program before the draft, or will have to wait until May/June when it's too late.

I've watched Tyree Barnes play at Navy, which is a big run-first team. He's just as much of a project as Price, except without the scary upside. White will be in the mix at running back more than receiver. He's a weapon, would probably have to beat out Edelman for a spot.

 

[Off The Grid]

I see Price as the "next" David Givens; he came out of a run first, second, and third offense where he was required to develop his blocking skill set and not his route tree/defense reading skill set.

He's in the system now hopefully improving his weaknesses and working on being more sudden and explosive in his route running, he'll have a significant head start on any new WR.

Great stuff, and very encouraging: I'd much rather have a talented Wide Out who's had Blocking burned into his soul and needs to develop his Receiving Game, than the reverse. By FAR.

 

[Off The Grid]

Nothing against Price, but I had Ajirotutu and Blair White at about the same level as Price on my board. Both were signed by (or, flipside, both agreed to sign with) receiver-heavy teams with very good passers and are only getting a chance to show their NFL-readiness because of injuries. The point being that both are producing immediately. Long term, they may not end up being as good as Price, but that's far from a given at this point.

So, I wish at least one of them had been signed by the Pats for the P/S.

Yup. Not a big fan of hating on picks the very moment they don't become Hall of Famers, and I do have faith in Price...But every year, there are talented Receivers available dirt cheap. Running Backs, too, of course.

From a Salary Cap stand point, it's quite easy to build a formidable Offensive Line, behind which talented but dirt cheap Running Backs can pick up huge chunks of yardage, which in turn loosens up the Defense and allows the talented but dirt cheap Wide Receivers to fly around and make plays. My GOD, I wish I had a few Billion, to buy out Kraft!!

Y'know, I often wonder how the scouting department is organized. First of all, how many scouts do they employ? Are their scouting duties divided by region of the country (which makes sense from a travel standpoint)? Pro vs. college? Or are they divided positionally (which makes the most sense to me)?

I mean, it's pretty clear that Dante scouts for the O-line (though certainly not by himself) and probably has the final input for BB - turns in the prioritized "wish list" for BB to incorporate in the team draft board. I'd guess BB is primarily concerned with evaluating defensive prospects with input from Matt, Pepper and the rest of the defensive coaches.

But who scouts/evaluates WRs?

And who has been, over the years?

Has there ever been anyone specifically assigned to scouting WRs?

Since Branch and Givens in 2002, we've drafted Bethel Johnson ('03) and Chad Jackson ('06) and now Taylor Price.

We "missed" UDFAs Welker & Malcolm Floyd ('04), Lance Moore & Nate Washington ('05), Miles Austin ('06), Davone Bess ('08), Ajirotutu and Blair White ('10) - while picking up guys like Bam Childress, PK Sam, Buddy Farnham, etc.

In veteran pickups, we've had:
Patten ('01)
Donald Hayes ('02)
JJ Stokes & Dedric Ward ('03)
Kevin Kasper ('04)
Andre Davis & Tim Dwight ('05)
Gaffney, Caldwell, Gabriel & Kight ('06)
Welker, Moss, Stallworth & Washington ('07)
Aiken ('08)
Galloway & Lewis ('09)
Holt ('10).

I'll be the first to note that several of the above "WRs" were actually picked up for their return/special teams abilities, which is fine. Even so, the "misses" significantly outnumber the "hits" and the result has often been a lack of real depth at WR (which really hurt us in '09).

Now, I'm not trying to build a "hate case" here by any means.

Just noting the pattern and trying to figure out whether the results are due to poor evaluation or a lack of focus/priority on WR scouting.

That is a very, very interesting point.

I must admit: I've been so focused on my fundamental and philosophical choice to pass on RB's and WR's until the later rounds...That I haven't given a single thought to speculating on why such an extraordinary organization has been so awful at it.

As you point out ~ as we both have ~ there are virtually always several Diamonds in the Rough available in the late rounds and beyond.

As you say: Not to hate: Coach Bill is unrivaled, for my money.

It's just a very interesting puzzle.

 

[Off The Grid]

How about this: the player the Patriots drafted after Price has 34 receptions for 436 yards and 2 TDs. The ONLY other player drafted or signed after Price who matches that production is Mike Williams, who was a character scratch. Cooper and Ajirotutu have combined for a whopping 13 catches.

So where are these "opportunity costs"?

Well, if there's "opportunity cost", it's in who we might've picked instead of Price, of course.

...Or in the additional 2011 2nd Rounder we might've pilfered for that pick!!

Personally, as long as Coach Bill holds off on WR's and RB's until the 3rd ~ and QB's until the 6th, thank you!! ~ I'll be happy. This Spring, so many folks were clamoring for Dez in the first, or Williams in the 2nd, that I was thrilled that we held off until the 3rd.

And I'm particularly glad to learn from Brother Box ~ whose knowledge in these matters DWARFS mine ~ that Taylor Price has been as vigilantly schooled in the fine art of Blocking as he has been. That, for my money, adds IMMENSE value to Brother Price.

In any case, I consider any contributions that a Rookie Wide Out provides to be pure Gravy.

 

[eagle eye]

I know there were character issues with Mike Williams. he quit his college team rather than face a suspension. I don't know the whole story with him but he could be big trouble down the road. And its very clear that part of the drafting strategy was to bring in leaders and good character guys so he was never going to be on the

Jordan Shipley would never have been a likely pickup either given that we have Welker and Edelman who are both excellent in the slot.

Seyi Ajirotutu had a real bad combine.

The guy I wanted though was Emmanuel Sanders who is looking good with the Steelers but he went earlier in the third round than Price.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Y'know, I often wonder how the scouting department is organized. First of all, how many scouts do they employ? Are their scouting duties divided by region of the country (which makes sense from a travel standpoint)? Pro vs. college? Or are they divided positionally (which makes the most sense to me)?

Mike Reiss posted a breakdown a couple years back ...

As I recall there are two-three Pro Scouts under the Director of Pro Scouting.

The Director of College Scouting has 8-9 area and regional scouts, where they are located wasn't reported.

There are 2-3 Scouting Assistants learning the ropes, I imagine they work for both sections as needed.

Nick Caserio currently heads all this up. During the season he makes scouting trips too.

Once the season is over and the coaches have done their end of season review and gotten plans for next season well advanced, they get briefings from the Scouting department and are sent on the road to Pro-Days and private workouts with prospects. I wouldn't be surprised if the Coaching Assistants, some who will have done an internship as Scouting Assistants (both coaching assistants Brian Ferentz and Brian Flores started in the Personnel section), don't get sent out for visits too.
-- Position coaches scout prospects for their position, though I'm sure they are given some leeway to look at other positions at Pro-Days.
-- OC, DC, and STs scout for their side of things.
-- BB sits in on scouting meetings, he scouts Florida and where he and Caserio feel it advantageous he take a look. Last season he scouted McCourty, since his DB coach had just finished his first season as a position coach, and there was no DC, BB was the best evaluator available to make the call on a player probably grading out as a first round pick. We know Caserio and Scarneccia both visited Rutgers for the Pro-Day, if NE had been keying on an OL BB probably wouldn't have made a special trip, but Rutger's troubled LT didn't participate and I'm betting Caserio flagged McCourty for follow-up by a position coach.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

But aren't Barnes and White similar to Price, in that they're coming from teams not exactly known for their passing games?

I've watched Tyree Barnes play at Navy, which is a big run-first team. He's just as much of a project as Price, except without the scary upside. White will be in the mix at running back more than receiver. He's a weapon, would probably have to beat out Edelman for a spot.

Yup, Navy runs the ball. However, both kids were here for OTAs with NE and I can't think they were placed on Reserve/Military without having made a good initial impression and without receiving two years worth of homework assignments in such areas as strength & conditioning, diet, route tree, basic playbook, dvds on defense reading and option routes, as well as practice dvds of their time in camp for reference.

I don't know where I got my impression, but I have a memory of reading or hearing that Barnes 40 time was in the 4.4's. Price ran a 4.40-4.47 range at the Combine as measured by the various recording stations. Barnes and Price are pretty much the same size as reported by NFL Draft Scout's sources.

Price will undoubtedly have an advantage being at Gillette this year, but it's not as if NE put a lot of money or effort into Barnes. They essentially have an insurance policy to cash in for next season, twice as many opportunities to get the kind of player they are looking to develop. How that affects the draft? I don't think it will one way or another if the best player available is graded out as a WR, but I don't think NE knows what they might want at the moment.

 

[MustaphaM0nd]

Beyond combine numbers, I think BB places value on character, and that makes the navy guys appealing to him.

Yup, Navy runs the ball. However, both kids were here for OTAs with NE and I can't think they were placed on Reserve/Military without having made a good initial impression and without receiving two years worth of homework assignments in such areas as strength & conditioning, diet, route tree, basic playbook, dvds on defense reading and option routes, as well as practice dvds of their time in camp for reference.

I don't know where I got my impression, but I have a memory of reading or hearing that Barnes 40 time was in the 4.4's. Price ran a 4.40-4.47 range at the Combine as measured by the various recording stations. Barnes and Price are pretty much the same size as reported by NFL Draft Scout's sources.

Price will undoubtedly have an advantage being at Gillette this year, but it's not as if NE put a lot of money or effort into Barnes. They essentially have an insurance policy to cash in for next season, twice as many opportunities to get the kind of player they are looking to develop. How that affects the draft? I don't think it will one way or another if the best player available is graded out as a WR, but I don't think NE knows what they might want at the moment.

 

[PatsFanStnfrd]

Blair White -- UDFA rookie -- made great catches yesterday for the Colts replacing Collie. What prompted him to go undrafted?

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Blair White -- UDFA rookie -- made great catches yesterday for the Colts replacing Collie. What prompted him to go undrafted?

Lack of speed.

Price is going to red shirt this year and he has TC next year to prove he belongs.

PS: Given BB's track record with non-comp picks in the third round, Price maybe doomed.

 

[ZoisKing]

I think it's a little naive to state other teams draft gems in comparison to Price. Teams hit and miss on prospects every year. You can't look at one successful guy on another team-that countless other teams passed on-and question why we didn't go get him.

 

[SirApropos]

I think it's a little naive to state other teams draft gems in comparison to Price. Teams hit and miss on prospects every year. You can't look at one successful guy on another team-that countless other teams passed on-and question why we didn't go get him.

Agreed. The Pats had 11 WR in training camp and they already had added one UDFA in Buddy Farnham.

They had Randy Moss still and had brought in vets Torry Holt and David Patten but mainly tried to get Brandon Tate up to speed since he was on IR his first year.

Normally it takes 3 years for WR to adjust to speed of the NFL. So Price has some time and also Tate should continue to improve.

They are stocked at WR already for next year's camp since everyone is under contract.

Deion Branch
Julian Edleman
Taylor Price
Matthew Slater
Brandon Tate
Wes Welker
Darnell Jenkins (PS)
Shun White (Military Reserve)
Tyree Barnes (Military Reserve)

I could see them bringing Farnham back and maybe another vet or UDFA. The passing game is workig right now. They are using Gronk and Hernandez to go over the middle and deep routes and occasionally Tate. All of those guys are in their first year of playing so all should improve next year.

 

[DaBruinz]

I think we will take another wr in the draft.I wouldnt mind Leonard Hankerson from miami I really like his game.

I honestly don't see the Pats drafting another WR. All their WRs are under contract through 2011 and they have 3 youngsters in Edelman, Tate and Price. While I have been somewhat disappointed with Edelman's lack of progress, I also take into consideration that he's only in his 2nd year of playing WR. I also remember that he was stuck behind Moss, Welker and Tate early in the season and now is stuck behind Welker, Branch and Tate. Also, I have to consider that when the Pats have gone to 4 and 5 receiver sets, they've put Gronkowski and Hernandez out there to create mismatches. So, Edelman is really like the 6th receiver.. But what that does mean is that he's got the bust his butt in the off-season to make sure he catches things when thrown to.

The only way that I can see the Pats drafting a WR is if they decide to give up on Edelman or get a great trade offer for him. Or, the best value available happens to be a WR who they feel is better than Branch on the outside.

 

[ZoisKing]

I wouldn't mind going after a big wide receiver in the 3rd. The wide receiver from LSU-Tolliver-would be nice, but that's about the only type of receiver I'd be interested in drafting.

Edelman was a bright spot for us, but has been more mistake prone recently and is in an uphill battle to get playing time.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I hope BB grabs a receiver, I'm big on Randall Cobb, not only would be be a force on Special teams but he can be a WR/KR/QB/etc.

Look at how Brad Smith helps the Jets, why wouldnt we want a utility player of our own?

 

[DaBruinz]

I hope BB grabs a receiver, I'm big on Randall Cobb, not only would be be a force on Special teams but he can be a WR/KR/QB/etc.

Look at how Brad Smith helps the Jets, why wouldnt we want a utility player of our own?

Julian Edelman and Wes Welker both say "HI"

 

[Off The Grid]

Blair White -- UDFA rookie -- made great catches yesterday for the Colts replacing Collie. What prompted him to go undrafted?

Beats the hell out'f me. It was probably his lack of experience. I wasn't following that closely, last year.

He had a very fast "40" time ~ 4.49 ~ but what really got MY attention were his amazing Shuttle time and Cone Time, as I value Lateral Velocity and Mercuriality one HELL of a lot more than a guy's ability to run in a straight line.