Did BB make a mistake bypassing Dunlap for Cunningham last year...

[jsull87]

Certainly, but this seems like a peculiar choice to jump on. Cunningham got off to a slow start because of injury but all signs through the course of the season looked very positive. He showed signs of developing into a complete linebacker. In other words, it appears that the Patriots finally spent a premium pick on an OLB, successfully.

But now drafting him was a mistake because another rookie with different strengths and weaknesses, playing in a different system, put up more sacks? We're supposed to ignore the fact that Cunningham had more tackles, QB hurries, forced fumbles, etc. etc. etc. plus the fact that he was BB's first ever rookie starter at OLB and declare him a bad pick because of Dunlap's sack numbers?

If you want to criticize BB & co. for not successfully developing an OLB before this, I'll gladly join the parade. But why slam the pick that finally bucked that ugly trend? Dunlap being good doesn't make Cunningham bad.

^ all that really needs to be said

 

[Off The Grid]

Performance (or results) is always a legitimate reason to question choice.

I'm sure that when BB does self-scouting with his coaching/player development group talk about what-ifs and whys.

As I mentioned in my OP, the jury is out on Cunningham. Dunlap seems to have performed very well -- demonstrating real value as an edge rusher. To me this even more than the miss on Matthews a few years ago will define how we judge BB's ability to draft pass rushers.

The fact that BB generally makes good picks or is an excellent coach should not obscure mistakes or immunize him from criticism.

Perfectly crafted Prose, sir.

For the record, I think that Cunningham was a FAR better pick than Dunlap, who's character concerns were precisely what we don't want.

I am very skeptical of whether or not he's got the passion, the perseverance, the love of the game, or the appreciation for team versus individual accolades, to consistently and persistently perform the wide range of duties that Cunningham is rapidly mastering. Furthermore, all the Reading + Reacting involved dictates that you need to command extraordinary Diagnostic Skills and Processing Speed to flourish as Flanker in the 34, something Coach B and Coach Meyer doubtlessly discussed at length, with regard to these two.

And I would add that the Pick was either good or bad on the day it was made, on the merits of what we knew then, regardless of what the results turn out to be. If Dunlap sets the all time Sack record, it does not necessarily follow that passing on him for Cunningham was a mistake, or even anything less than an excellent move.

Even so, I applaud your philosophy: Greatness ~ Coach B's ~ ought not translate to immunity from criticism.

Even Coach B screws up, though I don't think this was one of those occasions.

 

[jeffbiologist]

Now I'm not putting the Bengals D in the hall of fame, but look at the stats. They were 15th in yds/gm with decent numbers getting off the field on 3rd. The Pats were 25th and horrible on 3rd! Considering how pathetic their offense was their defense didnt do too badly, Dunlap is part of that. They have lots of young players on D like we do and have to play both the Ravens and Steelers twice each. Cunningham is my binky, in college he was ALWAYS around the ball...same last year with those 17 pressures. The key for him is to FINISH, something he doesnt do well. It would help if there is pressure elsewhere but he is different than Dunlap because he doesnt take plays off. Truth is we could have used BOTH of them but maybe BB felt he couldnt set the edge as well in the 3-4.

 

[DaBruinz]

Carlos Dunlap was the Bengals pick right behind the Pats selecting Jermaine Cunningham in round 2 of the 2010 draft. Dunlap had a terrific year masked by being on a terrible team. Dunlap was second among all rookies in QB sacks last year, narrowly second to Suh. An article on the Bengals website headlined "Reason for Optimism" points out:

"Dunlap finished with 9.5 sacks to break the Bengals rookie mark of 8.5 that had been set by defensive end Justin Smith in 2001. Dunlap had more than three times as many sacks as his closest teammate—rookie defensive tackle Geno Atkins was second at 3.0—and Dunlap became the first rookie to lead the Bengals in sacks since 1990, when linebacker James Francis had 8.0."

It goes on to say: "To be sure, Dunlap ended the season as the hottest pass rushing rookie in the NFL. He had 8.5 of his sacks over the last six games."

Reason for optimism

In short, Dunlap alone had nearly as many sacks as all of Pats OLB combined.

So, while a lot of people bemoan BB missing out on Clay Matthews a few years ago, there has been understandably less focus on BB passing over Dunlap. IF memory serves right, Dunlap had several "attitude" marks against him. He was said to inconsistent in some Florida games (which college player isn't?). But he certainly had the measurables and the broader college record that BB could look to (unlike Matthews). In fact, numerous draft "experts" had Dunlap a potential Pats pick -- precisely because of his measurables, record and Pats need at DE/OLB. I also recognize that the jury is out on Cunningham. I also understand that the players performance varies with scheme. But that's why BB is there -- to coach someone like Dunlap to play in his scheme.

Thus BB's pick of Cunningham -- and how he performs vs. Dunlap's performance going forward -- could be a defining one to watch in the long standing Pats search for an anchor pass rusher who can get the opposing QB.

How many times do people have to say that you can't compare an how a player does as a DE a 4-3 single gap defense to an OLB in a 3-4 Two Gap defense?

Seriously. There are so many different things asked of the OLB in the BB defense in comparison to the Bengals defense it's not even remotely in the same ballpark. So WHY do it? It sure as hell doesn't make you look smarter than Belichick. And it doesn't even remotely make it look like you have a modicum of understanding of the differences between the two defenses.

Your OP is an EPIC FAIL.

 

[DaBruinz]

What are you doing, accusing BB of making a mistake? Why here at BBManLove.com, that is cause for virtual disembowelment with a used kicking tee or a rabid cat.

For the record, the mantra here is:
1) Sacks don't matter, if they did matter BB would have surely addessed the situation years ago.
2) BB is always right, and when he is wrong it is because everybody else is wrong, not BB.
3) Did I mention that sacks don't matter?
4) It is a good thing that the nose tackle led the team in sacks last year, I mean, somebody had to do it and Brady wasn't available.
5) BB the GM is infallable, while BB the coach is the best ever.
and number
6) BB never gets wet, he walks on water.

And this is from a BB fan, a guy who had the audacity to question why BB didn't add a pass rusher, and between the BB ball sucking and the BB lollipoping I found out that I knew nothing about football, because I was told so in no uncertain terms.

Seriously? You're smoking the same cheap garbage that the OP was..

 

[DaBruinz]

Dunlap:
10 Yard: 1.61
20 Yard split : 2.69 (not to be confused with 20 yard shuttle)
Vertical: 31 3/4"
Broad Jump: 9'04

40 games/ 15 starts. He left ranked 10th in Gator history with 19.5 sacks despite only starting 15 games over his career.

Cunningham
10 Yard:1.60
20 Yard split:2.77
Vertical: 35
Broad Jump: 9'10"

45 games. 38 Starts. Additionally tallied 34.0 tackles for loss, 19.5 sacks, seven pass deflections, five forced fumbles, one interception and a fumble recovery during his tenure with the Gators

So, do you really think that Cunningham is worse than Dunlap? I don't. I think that Cunningham is actually the more well rounded candidate and better fit for OLB for the Pats. Dunlap is a "Dwight Freeney" type DE. He does one thing well. Rush the passer. That's not the only thing the Pats ask of their OLBs.

 

[DaBruinz]

So?

The whole art of the draft is projecting college players to play in your scheme. College schemes are vastly different than pro schemes. That is the whole nature of scouting -- and then coaching and player development. The most you can expect are player measurables suited to your system and a solid record. Dunlap had both. Getting the player to perform in your system is upto coaching.

I'm sure BB carefully evaluated both Dunlap and Cunningham. He chose to pass over Dunlap who was widely picked to go round 1 or 2 to pick Cunningham was widely expected to be a 4th or 5th round pick. Cunningham might well vindicate his selection and more. Yet, Dunlap has already made his presence felt in a meaningful way. The fact that he has succeeded in a different system, does not mean he would not be a blazing success with the Pats. Especially under a great coach like BB.

There are numerous threads on this website and elsewhere about the Pats missing on Matthews and others dedicated to lack of elite pass-rushers. I am simply suggesting passing Dunlap for Cunningham may be more of a defining moment in BB's ability to draft and develop pass rushers

HUH?? Cunningham was rated a HIGH of a mid 2 to a low of a top of the 5th round with the median being bottom of the 3rd. Where the hell do you get this "widely expected to be a 4th/5th round pick?

There fact is that you are absolultely clueless as to how Dunlap would have done in the Pats scheme. However, if you'd bothered watching any of the games he played in, you'd know he stinks against the run. Period.

As for the whole "getting a player to perform in your system, the player has to have the ABILITIES and mindset to do so. Clearly BB felt that Dunlap did NOT have those abilities and that Cunningham did.

 

[DaBruinz]

Even so, I applaud your philosophy: Greatness ~ Coach B's ~ ought not translate to immunity from criticism.

Even Coach B screws up, though I don't think this was one of those occasions.

Who said BB is immune to criticism? The least the OP could have done is actually have made a valid argument. He didn't He failed. He's talking about guys after their ROOKIE season when you shouldn't be evaluating them until year 3. He's also tried to compare a 3-4 Two Gap OLB to a 4-3 Pass Rushing Specialist. The OP also failed to acknowledge that BB worked both Dunlap and Cunningham out himself. He also failed to acknowledge the difference in the two players and the similarities or the fact that Cunninghame had been a starter for significantly longer than Dunlap. Heck, one could say that Dunlap benefitted from having Cunningham playing opposite him.

The whole argument was poorly developed and lacked significant information to be able to develop an accurate opinion.

 

[everlong]

It's a lot like the Clay Mathews argument. The schemes don't translate and once you give Mathews or Dunlap gap responsibility they're not as effective in the pass rush and they don't stack against the run and people would want them run out of town. If people wanted to second guess a player for me it would be not drafting Woodley who didn't fit the physical profile however I think most would agree he could play in this scheme. He can rush, drop in coverage and set the edge.

I liked Woodly and Harris in that draft but if they didn't trade out and had selected one of them there's no Mayo plus some other players so it's really hard to complain.

 

[E Belichick Unum]

Seriously? You're smoking the same cheap garbage that the OP was..

Look, mamma raised ugly children, not dumb children. BB is a great coach, but even great coaches make mistakes. BB has not addressed the outside pass rush situation, he has tried a couple of times, but he has never given it the attention that IMO he should. He is the guy, I just a working stiff, but it doesn't mean that I can't see what is in front of me. This defense has to get pressure from the outside, because it is the only position that does not have other responsibilities in the passing game. TBC, Ninkovitch and Cunningham resulted in 9.5 sacks total last year, that isn't nealy enough.

In the Jets playoff they had no sacks, no knockdowns and no hurries. That is a trifector that never should happen in a playoff game. When the games get big the great players get big also.The average players get little, as in 0/0/0 against the Jets.

BTW, I smoke great stuff.

 

[Shelterdog]

It's a lot like the Clay Mathews argument. The schemes don't translate and once you give Mathews or Dunlap gap responsibility they're not as effective in the pass rush and they don't stack against the run and people would want them run out of town. If people wanted to second guess a player for me it would be not drafting Woodley who didn't fit the physical profile however I think most would agree he could play in this scheme. He can rush, drop in coverage and set the edge.

I liked Woodly and Harris in that draft but if they didn't trade out and had selected one of them there's no Mayo plus some other players so it's really hard to complain.

The other issue is that Dunlap was viewed as a bad character guy (and Cunningham a good character guy), so lets see if the character concerns ever come home to roost and lets see how much each player works and improves.

 

[Off The Grid]

Who said BB is immune to criticism? The least the OP could have done is actually have made a valid argument. He didn't He failed. He's talking about guys after their ROOKIE season when you shouldn't be evaluating them until year 3. He's also tried to compare a 3-4 Two Gap OLB to a 4-3 Pass Rushing Specialist. The OP also failed to acknowledge that BB worked both Dunlap and Cunningham out himself. He also failed to acknowledge the difference in the two players and the similarities or the fact that Cunninghame had been a starter for significantly longer than Dunlap. Heck, one could say that Dunlap benefitted from having Cunningham playing opposite him.

The whole argument was poorly developed and lacked significant information to be able to develop an accurate opinion.

Simmer DOWN, Beavis.

I think we ALL disagree with Stanford's OP, though some of us are one hell of a lot more civil about the WAY in which we disagree with it, than OTHERS.

Can I compliment one nicely-put aspect of the guy's post ~ after which I spent 10 times the space arguing AGAINST his point ~ without you getting flustered??

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Can I compliment one nicely-put aspect of the guy's post ~ after which I spent 10 times the space arguing AGAINST his point ~ without you getting flustered??

What would a messageboard on the Internet be without people getting flustered?

 

[Sciz]

TBC, Ninkovitch and Cunningham resulted in 9.5 sacks total last year, that isn't nealy enough.

TBC: 5 sacks, 7 hits, 25 hurries, 37 total pressures
Ninkovich: 4 sacks, 4 hits, 12 hurries, 20 total pressures
Cunningham: 1 sack, 4 hits, 17 hurries, 22 total pressures
Dunlap: 9.5 sacks, 3 hits, 4 hurries, 16.5 total pressures

You're being awfully short-sighted if you think Dunlap is going to suddenly solve the pass rush problems.

 

[ay-yo]

This defense has to get pressure from the outside, because it is the only position that does not have other responsibilities in the passing game.

This is entirely not true

 

[serifyn]

Sacks arent the be-all end-all statistic on this defense, especially since the patriots rush less guys on average than most teams in the NFL, with less chaos going on around, his sack statistics should be less than an attacking defense such as green bay or Cincinnati.

 

[E Belichick Unum]

This is entirely not true

In BB's scheme the OLB is the primary pass rush, everything else is designed to either contain the QB or the RB. The defense is a really nice scheme, but it needs that outside pressure to be totally successful. WEven the threat of a pass rush is enough to force an extra blocker to be left in the backfield, without that threat, the opposition can block with its base personel.

BB plays for the advantage, if he can make the opposition leave an extra tightend to block that is a win. It takes that extra reciever out of the equation. Without that outside pressure that tightend can release and catch passes down the seam in the deep middle.

 

[E Belichick Unum]

This is entirely not true

Sacks arent the be-all end-all statistic on this defense, especially since the patriots rush less guys on average than most teams in the NFL, with less chaos going on around, his sack statistics should be less than an attacking defense such as green bay or Cincinnati.

Sacks create excitement, create mismatches and create uncertainty for the offense. They force the offense to change their game plan, or game plan for that dominent pass rusher.

When do you think an opposing offense had to game plan for a Partiots pass rusher? That is really the question that has to be addressed. If you tell me that they have to for every game than I must have missed it.

 

[patchick]

Sacks create excitement, create mismatches and create uncertainty for the offense. They force the offense to change their game plan, or game plan for that dominent pass rusher.

OK, but try substituting "quarterback pressure" for "sacks" above and the statement makes even more sense. (Why would sacks per se create "uncertainty"?) The only part that seems to apply specifically to sacks is "excitement" -- which means what exactly?

NOBODY disagrees that they'd like to see the Pats' pass rush improve. We're just answering the question posed in the title, "Did BB make a mistake bypassing Dunlap for Cunningham?" That question seemed to be based 100% on sack numbers put up by a guy who was used as a pure situational pass rusher in a different scheme, and who was a character question mark. My answer is that Cunningham seems like a good pick so far, not a mistake.

 

[ay-yo]

In BB's scheme the OLB is the primary pass rush, everything else is designed to either contain the QB or the RB. The defense is a really nice scheme, but it needs that outside pressure to be totally successful. WEven the threat of a pass rush is enough to force an extra blocker to be left in the backfield, without that threat, the opposition can block with its base personel.

BB plays for the advantage, if he can make the opposition leave an extra tightend to block that is a win. It takes that extra reciever out of the equation. Without that outside pressure that tightend can release and catch passes down the seam in the deep middle.

Except that when our defense was at it's best it was Seymour, not McGinest or Vrabel that was our best pass rusher. He was the guy commanding double teams and still beating them for a sack / hit / hurry. It was Seymour leaving our OLB as in 1 on 1 matchups that let them be sucessful.

They force the offense to change their game plan, or game plan for that dominent pass rusher.

When do you think an opposing offense had to game plan for a Partiots pass rusher?

My answer would be Seymour was the last time a team had to game plan for 1 specific Pats pass rusher. I agree that a dominant player makes the whole defense's job much easier. I just disagree that it has to come from OLB. It doesn't really matter who is the dominant rusher IMO just that you have one.

Now if you ask my preference of where I want my dominant player I'd say DL. It stops the offense from knowing where the 4th rusher is coming from. It's why I pray for Ngata in a Pats uni every night. But don't get me wrong I'd settle for DeMarcus Ware.