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Depression/Recession times are good on Wall Street...

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by DarrylS, Oct 12, 2010.

  1. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    For all of you prophets of doom and/or economists, ... times are good for the folks on Wall Street and the great divide continues...

    The rich get richer, and the bankers get more breaks while they capitalize on the underlings... Greed is good.

    Wall Street Pay Heads Toward New High - WSJ.com

    Last edited: Oct 12, 2010
  2. khayos

    khayos Rookie

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    It's ridiculous how disconnected the markets are from reality... propped up by your hard earned dollars.
  3. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    I've written this many times on this board, but I'm going to say it again...

    It is time to banish public corporations and Wall Street from the American landscape. The only thing it provides for is a vehicle to transfer wealth to the wealthy.

    It's become a cancer to this nation.
  4. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Sounds like socialism to this casual viewer...
  5. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    ...or at least you were "hoping" huh Darryl?:p

    No, what I'm saying is that all companies should be privately held. God knows we don't want the gov't to own/control business.

    When there are no longer any public corporations, then there is no need for Wall Street and all the dirty scum-bag excesses that go with it.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2010
  6. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    I thought you were a free market guy, PR.

    Where will people on invest under your scenario, or will they just horde cash?
  7. Real World

    Real World Rookie

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    Prepare yourselves for the massive sell off that is coming as December 31st approaches, and the tax cuts are set to expire.

    How are those bailouts working for the average joe right now? We pay trillions, and corps and banks make zillions. This is what started the Tea Party movement, and made it into what it is now.
  8. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    Investing and Wall Street has become a place where only those who understand micro-second trading and super-computer assisted analysis can prosper.

    Free market doesn't mean "anything goes" and I support protection for the average American more than I do protection of "they system" or corporations.

    If you look historically at Wall Street, we see the Dow going from 1,000 in the late 80's to 14,000 in 2007. A 1,400% increase! But what has happened to the middle class during the same period? We have less assets and less disposeable income as a percent of our earnings.

    I really do believe Wall Street has been the channel from which wealth has transfered from those with less to those with more.

    How is that a benefit to our society?

    Either we get rid of Wall Street or transform it dramatically...in my opinion.
  9. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    PR, I wasn't implying that you should think anything goes, or that that should be the case, just that banning public companies seems to go squarely against the smaller govt approach you usually seem to adopt.
  10. khayos

    khayos Rookie

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    I'm really confused by the statement... how does dissolving GSEs go against smaller govt?
  11. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    No idea what a "GSE" is, but PR's desire to abolish "Wall Street" and ban public companies is what I'm referring to, and it goes against small government because it's the government again telling millions of people what they can and cannot do, even if they may want to engage in those exchanges and those exchanges would often benefit them.
  12. khayos

    khayos Rookie

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    Government Sponsored Entities... public companies... Fannie and Freddie, etc.

    I'm not for abolishing Wall Street, I just think it's overvalued because of the implied backing by the US Treasury... too low risk.
  13. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    Most public companies aren't GSEs.

    The government is involved in many things it shouldn't be. Tax breaks and low interest rates prop up the housing market, for ex.

    But further government intervention in terms of bans isn't the answer (not that you're proposing that -- I understand you're not).
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2010
  14. Real World

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    I agree. Abolishing Wall Street is crazy. If people want to invest, so be it. I've got no problems with that. What I do have a problem with, is Wall Street, corporations, and banks being bailed out with my tax dollars. That I would abolish. It's no coincidence that the "sky was falling" bailouts happened 2-3 years ago, and now Wall Street is back to pushing 11,000. It's why the bailouts were pretty much BS.
  15. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    If Wall Street were no more, there would be no need for oversight, regulation and a hundred other things the gov't looks at Wall Street for. There would be no more "insider trading" incidents to prosecute as well. So, to me, there would be LESS need for gov't, not more.

    How would dissolving Wall Street and public corporations increase gov't size?
  16. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    All the quantitative easing the fed is pushing has resulted in a soaring Dow. A soaring Dow in the midst of a grand recession is ridiculous. So all the bailouts (which is what quantitative easing is all about) has benefitted who? Wall Street and only Wall Street!

    Let me ask you and anyone else this question:

    If the markets, and specifically, the Dow have increased 1,400% since the late 80's, why hasn't the average American's wealth increased along with it?

    I challenge anyone to explain why & how Wall Street has benefitted the average American during this period.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2010
  17. Real World

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    If the average american has invested in stocks, or the market, then they've benefited. Aside from that, if "X" wasn't around anymore, then there would be no reason for Y & Z. Insert just about anything into X, and you'll see my point.
  18. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    The middle class doesn't have the same access to Wall Street that the wealthy have...as a matter of fact, it's not even close.

    Look, I'm totally disgusted with the greed of our financial system and WS in particular. I'm even more disgusted that those we voted in are helping them add to their wealth & greed.

    Now, if we can apply regulation and make investing an equal playing field, I'm all for it....I'll even accept a more even playing field. But I will not accept money invested by the middle class going to the wealthiest among us.

    Why is it that the average middle class family's investments have declined while the average super-wealthy American's have flourished during this recession?

    I think there should be a warning that says "Warning: The middle class has very little chance of building wealth in the markets!" Because based upon history, that's true.

    I also see a big crash in the coming months...but I better be careful or shmessy will come by and scold me!:D
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2010
  19. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    I'm not saying it increases the size of government in terms of personnel, I'm saying it's expanded government in terms of its interference with people's lives and decisions.

    What would happen when people or institutions want to invest in companies -- would you do away with angel investing, hedge funds and private equity as well?

    where would companies get equity capital in your scenario, and where would people invest their savings (or wouldn't they)?
  20. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    Is that the test for whether something should exist? and the government should prohibit everything else?

    I guess I approach things the other way -- I thought that is what limited government is about.
  21. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    agreed

    What are you basing this on?
  22. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    The fact that so many wealthy people have increased their investment earnings during this recession while the avg. Joe like us has taken a huge hit.

    But even more importantly, the HUMONGOUS bonuses that Wall Street people are getting since this recession began! I think that is where the greatest transfer of wealth has occurred. Since 2008, the number of trades has increased significantly along with people changing their investments in an attempt to beat the markets. As we all know, Wall Street makes their money based upon the volume of transactions, not whether they are helping people make money.
  23. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    I feel this way because there is nothing as big or as powerful as Wall Street. I think some things need to be controlled. I think it should at least be discussed, but I highly doubt we'll hear any politician discuss this from the right or the left...so you don't have to worry.

    It's just a personal issue of mine.

    P.S. Have I made money in my retirement fund? yes, I have. So it's not a personal vendetta because I think I got screwed...just in case you were wondering.
  24. Real World

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    Of course the middle class doesn't have the same access, they don't have the same money. That's a matter of basic mathematics. It's the same with any type of investing more or less. I'm not sure how you can't see this.

    Investing is an equal playing field. You can invest money, in the same ways any american can. The only variable is the amount you have to invest, and where that will get you. This rule applies to most everything. Be it retail purchases, property, restaurants, etc. Anyone can go to a 5 start hotel, or buy a Benz. So long as you have the money to pay for it. You can invest in any stock you want, so long as you can afford it. I can buy any property I so choose, so long as I can pay for it. Investments are no different, except for the fact that the better investment bankers, or financial advisors, are going to work with richer people, before they'll work with you. Again though, that's the case with most anything. Scott Boras isn't going to represent some bit player, and Gordon Gecko isn't helping you.

    First of all, says who? Second of all, assuming you are correct, what are the specifics? When the market crashed to under 8,000, was this the case? Also, middle class earners aren't as diversified as rich investors, nor do they have nearly the same capital. A middle class earner has far less margin to work with. They will be more harshly affected by a down turn for a number of different reasons, with margin being one of them. Another is interest, or intellect. A rich investor is probably more aware of his investments because of their size, and term investment, as well as the fact that he may have an advisor monitoring them as well. A middle class earner is likely in for the long run, or pays less attention to his stock portfolio, due to the difference in lifestyle. I'm speculating here of course.


    I see a sell off prior to 12/31/10. Especially if the "Bush" tax cuts are allowed to expire, or if their amended extension includes a rise in capital gains taxes. Of course, the subsequent question would be whether or not a sell off related drop would be temporary.

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