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Democracy: Tyranny by the Poor and Lower Middle Class and Elderly

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by State, Sep 25, 2009.

  1. State

    State Rookie

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    All at the point of a gun. Source Obama's Policies Would Redistribute Nearly $1 Trillion in Wealth Every Year

    I wish more of us would read _The Law_ by Frederic Bastiat, who writes of the "Fatal Tendency" of mankind:
    Maybe I'm getting too philosophical.

    HT: ANOTHER FACT FOR YOUR LIBERAL FRIENDS
  2. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    We should all clearly understand one point: it is by and large NOT the poor or the lower middle class or the elderly who are the Prime Movers of this tyranny; it is the opportunistic politicians who want to make these under-class individuals their vassals; it's called the "Welfare Plantation".

    Those pols who have made their living out of taking funds from those who work and giving those funds to those who won't work are the ones responsible for this huge and ever-growing threat to America's independence. Yes, even America's ability to live free from foreign dictates is now in question simply because the Congress -- often by presidential prodding -- has now been compromised. See the thread on China's growing role in the American economy via the enormous debt the U.S. now owes to China, some $2 to 5 TRILLION. http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...76054-finally-bill-comes-due.html#post1520544

    Before anyone gets too outraged at those who are receiving all the freebies and give-aways of tax-payers' hard won earnings, look first at the politicians who are passing the crippling legislation that gives away all your hard-won earnings. It's the left-wing pols who are doing this. Their goal is to turn America into a welfare state, much like Britain. Think: who respects Britain in the world?? China?? Russia?? Cuba?? Chavez?? Zelaya?? Ahmedinejad?? Kim Jongil??

    Is that what you want America to become?? I know I don't.

    //
  3. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    “The top-earning 40 percent of families will transfer $826 billion to the bottom 60 percent in 2012."

    How funny that conservatives don't seem to understand the very basics of capitalism. In our system, the bottom 60% transfer close to 100% of their income to the top 40%. That's a big part of the reason that the top 40% get to be the top 40%. Capitalism redistributes wealth through a mechanism called "profits," which in a sense are taxes. Those profits are redistributed to employees and especially shareholders. The money gets redistributed yet again through a system called "taxation." Then the cycle repeats itself.
  4. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The beginning of a collapse, take from the Rich give to the Poor then the Rich will leave the poor will stay but will have no Rich to work for or no Rich to shower them with "welfare"
    COLLAPSE (the third world has finally arrived)

    GOD BE WITH YOU ALL

    The green grove is gone from the hill Maggie
    Where first the daisies sprung
    The creaking old mill is still Maggie
    Since you and I were young

    SO LONG AMERICA IT WAS GREAT WHILE IT LASTED

    DOESN'T MICHELLE HAVE FIRM ARMS AND BARACK HAS SUCH A BEAUTIFUL SMILE

    AMERICA AMERICA GOD SHED HIS GRACE ON THEE

    OH LORD, SOMEBODY STOP ME
  5. alvinnf

    alvinnf Rookie

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    Please explain to me how the bottom 60% transfer a 100% of their income to the top 40%.
  6. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You earn based on value provided, no one forces you to buy their products, government are the only ones who seize money by coercion. You sir have no understand of capitalism as a socialist.

    If you would like to become educated on the topic I would suggest the VonMises institute or Cato Institute, or try the Freedom to Choose videos from Milton Freidman that are being streamed online of you are interested.


    As M Thatcher said: "the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples money".
  7. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    considering the rate of dissavings in this country, that figure is actually more than 100%.
  8. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The numbers are rough, and it's probably a smaller number than the bottom 60%, but a large number of people live from paycheck to paycheck, spending all their money on necessities (and maybe a few luxuries when they can). They buy stuff and services, which are marked up, which result in profits to the company, which results in profits to the shareholders.
  9. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    M THATCHER, American Liberals hate her just as they do Reagan/Bush.
  10. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think human nature forces people to eat, clothe themselves, have shelter, go to the doctor, take care of their kids, etc. It's the coercive part of nature, I suppose one could say. No one forces a wealthy person to live in the U.S. Many have left for economic reasons or because they don't want to pay into the war machine or because they want to smoke pot. (I once had a landlord who sold his house, and moved to Barbados where he said he could live with his family, and just lay on the beach and get high every day.)

    You are right that government has coercive powers (just as a food market has for hungry or a landlord for those needing shelter), but those coercive powers are democratically derived and in general most people favor a military, interstate highways, prisons, police, and so on. Those things cost money, and I don't think a voluntary system would work. In short, you have to pay to live in any developed country. You might want to be a freeloader, but unfortunately for you many of the things you apparently take for granted you have to pay for.

    I've never benefited from my car insurance, but I've had it for over 30 years. It's just the price of civilization.

    As far as Cato and VonMises go, no thanks. I've read a few of their articles over the years, but I generally disagree with them. I do not regard capitalism as a religion, as they seem to (especially Cato, like the Heritage Foundation). It's merely the best tool available for running an advanced nation, provided there's an effective way to implement that tool, and the most effective way is taxation.
  11. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    I'm so surprised that the right is anti-democracy. :rolleyes:

    Of course, getting the lower middle class to be "vassals" for corporations and the power elite through religion, racism and general ignorance in order to maintain an exploitatative staus quo is democracy in action....
  12. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You can grow your own food, or choose where to buy you food, what food to buy and so on with no coercion involved sorry this escapes you. Most of the billions of people who have ever lives never visited a medical doctor or hospital. No coercion to do so (until Obamacare makes it illegal to not have health insurance.)
  13. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You are the one who is supporting a person attempt to stay in office illegally. What would your position be if Bush had tried to prevent the election or stay in office past his 2nd term?

    I would opposed it.

    This situation is no different,.

    Why are yo and why do you think the Administration is supporting a communist trying to stay in office illegally, because he is a communist?

    Will you support Obama if he tries to stay in office illegally because he is a leftist?


    Why should I be coerced to buy health ins?
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2009
  14. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Are you an anarchist? You don't think we need a defense, an SEC, a banking system. Do you favor barter? Do you think we need interstate highways? Do you think we need courts? Police? Firemen? Do you think that we should only be coerced into paying for what you think we need, or do you accept that we're a democratic society and that different eras and generations have different attitudes towards what's needed?

    Also, if you earn under around $4000/year you don't have to pay taxes, so the same person you are talking about who chooses to homestead somewhere can also choose legally to pay no taxes. So, you're point isn't really accurate. If you don't want to buy food, you can grow. If you don't want to pay taxes, you can earn an amount below the threshhold. In fact, I don't even think you have to fill out tax forms if you earn under ~$4000.
  15. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't think I should be forced to buy health insurance. I think government should only do things an individual can't and only do the thing explicitly stated in the constitution. Health care and most of what the feds do doesn't meet that standard.
  16. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    No, actually it's completely different since Zelaya did none of those things. He issued a non-binding poll about having a referendum that would still need 2/3 of congress' approval. Have you ever actually read anything about this issue before or are you just regurgitating what your talking heads have told you to think like usual?

    Why are you a child molester?

    I do not now nor have I ever supported Obama. But I wouldn't support his overthrow by the military simply for issuing a poll. Same with Bush, but you know, unlike you and your ilk I actually like Democracy.


    You shouldn't. In fact, please don't.
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2009
  17. PatsFanInVa

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    Ever since that tyrannical proposition that "all men are created equal," it's been downhill.

    Tyrants like Madison, Jefferson, Washington, Franklin, et al. consistently clothed their leftist plots in rhetoric invoking "freedom" and "liberty," when in fact the freest state of affairs one could conceive would be an absolute monarchy with no social mobility. It's the liberals in Parliament that screwed up everything. They forced the king to tax the colonists mercilessly to feed their unending masses of tyrannical poor. The more countries the king tried to benevolently rule without tyrannical social mobility, the more the poor oppressed the rich by trying to eat three times a day.

    The problem, of course, was that the mother country kept imposing taxes because the poor in the eighteenth century British Empire were already well on the way to soaking the benevolent royalty into the poor house, or poor palace, I suppose, in their case. If it were up to the Royal Family, everything would have been fine, but the Parliament had too much power.

    Unbelievable leftist tyrants in this country advocated a belief that all the people had rights and actually encouraged popular participation in the government. With their upside-down logic they kicked out their monarch in favor of the ordinary citizen... all the while (infuriatingly) waving flags with slogans such as "don't tread on me," which everybody knows is supposed to mean "don't tread on my money." I've been meaning to tell that to a biker or two but I am sure he would back up his tyrannical misappropriation of said flag with coercion.

    All in all the world's been going to hell in a handbasket since the first poor, hungry, downtrodden masses noticed they could depose the local hydraulic dictator and get into the grain storehouse instead of properly starving.

    :rolleyes:

    PFnV
  18. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    How do you feel about being forced into buying auto insurance? Or flood insurance on your house if you live in a flood zone? Or homeowner's insurance if you have a mortgage?

    Same damn thing.
  19. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Perhaps he wants to be one of those freeloaders who simply goes to a public health clinic or an emergency room where they have to treat him even if he brings no identification!
  20. PatsFanInVa

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    I understand if he presents with no ID or one from Mexico they use special gold-plated syringes to give him his favorite narcotic free of charge (no wait, they PAY him to take it!)
  21. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    Your arrogant attempt at parody is not only lame, it is deranged. You actually sit there and claim that illegals are NOT bringing in tens of BILLIONS of dollars worth of drugs every year?? Or that 30 million illegals in the U.S. are NOT a problem for Obama's "free medical care" scheme???

    You're not honest.



    //
  22. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Good thought, never thought of it this way... cannot drive without auto insurance.. cannot finance a house without insurance... somehow all of this will be lost in more right wing hysteria...
  23. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    "Mandatory" insurance is not new - nor is it without merit. The more people who pay into something the cheaper the cost to all.

    Plus, when everyone has something - everyone benefits - rich and poor alike.
  24. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    :wha:
    Explain how 30 million illegals -- many of whom are on welfare, collecting Food Stamps and other benefits -- are "paying into" ANYTHING.


    :wha:
    Stalin had a massive armed force, and so did Mao; drug dealers now have state of the art military arms and equipment -- how did that/is that "benefit" anybody .... except Stalin, Mao, and drug dealers???


    //
  25. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    Hey look!

    State started another thread and never responded to it! How wierd.

    I wonder if our resident grenade dropper would care to comment.
  26. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Too busy googling Obama Bad, racist thought of the day or posting on Stormfront.. or maybe reading that "scholarly" article.
  27. PatsFanInVa

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    Yours, by contrast, is always spot-on. Trouble is, it's self-parody, and you show no sign of awareness that you are writing it.

    No, I parodied the attitude that illegal aliens -- that great stalking horse of the right, good for what ails you in ANY domestic program -- are characterized as getting fantastic care at the drop of a hat. Try presenting with a chronic condition (rather than a broken pinkie at the ER) without insurance, whether or not you were born here. Treat and street. No gold-plated syringe.

    Try harder to get it next time; you're obviously not a "natural" in the humor department (that is, humor of the intentional variety.)

    Now THIS is humorous! Coming from YOU!?!?

    Foggy my boy, the least hoped-for outcome I could imagine is for you to judge my arguments, or even my parody, to be "honest."

    I'll let the Mrs. explain to you how illegal aliens do in fact pay into our system... AGAIN. Get your softest pillow out, if you plan to watch the game sitting down.

    For my part, I have only one question:

    Do you freeload off the Lithuanian national health care system while decrying our right as Americans and legal immigrants (the only ones covered) to similar universal coverage for those within our borders?

    Or have you relinquished your American citizenship in favor of Lithuanian citizenship?

    Talk about the pot calling the kettle black... and it's a long-distance call to boot.

    PFnV
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2009
  28. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    Oh Jeez, Foggy, not again? Didn't we just cover this a few days ago?

    But, ok, since you apparently missed it the first time - here ya go again.

    Many illegal aliens have bogus SS cards. Many illegal aliens get real-time jobs with those bogus SS cards. Their employers then take social security taxes (along with state and federal taxes) from those illegal aliens. That money then sits in a "earnings suspense fund" which the illegal aliens never get to touch. No way are they going to collect them. The amount now in this fund exceeds $300 billion. This $300 billion, by default, becomes ours - yours and mine. Not theirs but ours.

    But wait - that $300 billion is just a figure in a ledger. It gets better.

    The hard currency is the Social Security taxes that illegal immigrants and their employers pay on those earnings. That rings in at about $7 billion a year. Which is why you don't hear the Social Security Administration raising a fuss over illegal immigration. And to the degree that this arm of the U.S. government has friends in Congress, it could explain why you don't see many pieces of legislation calling for mass deportations of illegal immigrants. I mean, why kill the golden goose?

    Illegal immigrants and Social Security | The San Diego Union-Tribune

    Illegal aliens also buy goods and services from American businesses - and they pay the same sales taxes, state and federal, that you and I pay. That money then goes into the system which finances your medicare, your streets, your fire departments, your police departments, your schools, your military defense funds, your - well, you get it, your everything.

    Having worked in a medical setting for most of my life I can also pretty safely state that many of the illegal aliens who DO receive medical care pay for it. Probably more frequently than legal residents without insurance pay for it. They feel obligated to - most of them actually appreciate this country. They are also afraid that if they don't pay in advance or set up payment arrangements and live up to the agreement that someone will come looking for them - and they really don't want to be looked for. The best way to stay in this country if you are here illegally is to remain under the radar - and the best way to remain under the radar is to not call attention to yourself - paying your bills on time is a good way to not call attention to yourself.

    They didn't make their way here by being stupid - nor do they remain here by suddenly becoming stupid.

    They pay into the system the same way you and I do, Foggy, with one big difference, we expect something back, they do not.

    They just want to be here.
  29. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Illegal immigration reminds me of the drug trade, no one really wants it to stop as it is functional to american society.. in the case of illegals america is addicted to cheap labor and that works for many who close their eyes with phony paperwork..

    My fave analogy of this was after Katrina, could not find cheap help to clean out the mold in some of the water damaged houses.. brought in a bunch of Guatamalen Laborers.. some forgot to go back, now there is an illegal guatamalen problem in that area.. my bro in law runs a plastering business in NOLA, he used to get $18 a board they get $12 a board... he is suffering.

    The reality is everyone knows they are there, but no one really cares as they do the really crappy work.. cheap.
  30. alvinnf

    alvinnf Rookie

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    They don't use the money in the ESF, they try to attach it to an accurate SS# to bring the number of this entire fund down. You actually think having more people contibute to SS illegally is a good thing? The government is actually trying to lower the amount in this fund.

    Testimony of James B. Lockhart III before the House Committee on Ways and Means, Subcommittee on Social Security, Subcommittee on Oversight, on Strengthening Employer Wage Reporting February 16, 2006

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