Defensive scheme

[Rob0729]

Anyone with a basic understanding of NFL should know 2003 is a different era. That's when DBs can grab and hold on to WRs and create havoc on their routes with impunity. You can NOT play that style any more.

That style of defense is out-dated and won't work today.

Have you watched Revis play? He plays like Ty Law did in 2003. He is consistently playing physical football bumping and grabbing at WRs. That is why he beats Randy Moss because Moss doesn't respond well to that style of play.

The rules haven't changed since 2003 on how you can play. They have re-emphasized the 5 yard chuck rule, but never changed the rule. Like most re-emphasises, they have begun to lax the rules a bit at least for certain players like Revis.

Sorry, but the Pats style of play in 2003 could work now with the right players. That defense wasn't all about the DBs manhandling the receivers and by saying so actually shows that you have only a shallow understanding of the defense. That defense more often than not was predicated on the play of the front seven, not the back four. I would say that Rodney Harrison had more impact on the 2003 and 2004 defenses than all three other starting DBs combined because he was often used as a fifth LB playing a safety role.

 

[bigfandan]

Revis should be considered an exception... he can stay in touch with the elite WRs WITHOUT much body contact, that is a very rare skill not just now. Law was much more grab and tug.

On your point about front 7 being the key rather than DBs, you should know the connection between the front 7 and back 4, they go hand in hand. The back 4 hold off wr from separation allowing front 7 to make plays. That 2003 even had 42 sacks and many pressured throws. With bigger LBs and DEs it just took more time to get there but it eventually got there.

Now the league is a different ball game. You can't hold off WRs much longer; there are separations quicker; you have to bring instant pressure or it will be a completed pass.

Back to your point. There is only one Revis in this league. Even DPOY Woodson got burnt badly by Cardinals in NFL playoff.

Different era, different game. You better wake up to the new decade. Look at numbers of many 4000 yard passers.

Have you watched Revis play? He plays like Ty Law did in 2003. He is consistently playing physical football bumping and grabbing at WRs. That is why he beats Randy Moss because Moss doesn't respond well to that style of play.

The rules haven't changed since 2003 on how you can play. They have re-emphasized the 5 yard chuck rule, but never changed the rule. Like most re-emphasises, they have begun to lax the rules a bit at least for certain players like Revis.

Sorry, but the Pats style of play in 2003 could work now with the right players. That defense wasn't all about the DBs manhandling the receivers and by saying so actually shows that you have only a shallow understanding of the defense. That defense more often than not was predicated on the play of the front seven, not the back four. I would say that Rodney Harrison had more impact on the 2003 and 2004 defenses than all three other starting DBs combined because he was often used as a fifth LB playing a safety role.

 

[Rob0729]

Revis should be considered an exception... he can stay in touch with the elite WRs WITHOUT much body contact, that is a very rare skill not just now. Law was much more grab and tug.

On your point about front 7 being the key rather than DBs, you should know the connection between the front 7 and back 4, they go hand in hand. The back 4 hold off wr from separation allowing front 7 to make plays. That 2003 even had 42 sacks and many pressured throws. With bigger LBs and DEs it just took more time to get there but it eventually got there.

Now the league is a different ball game. You can't hold off WRs much longer; there are separations quicker; you have to bring instant pressure or it will be a completed pass.

Back to your point. There is only one Revis in this league. Even DPOY Woodson got burnt badly by Cardinals in NFL playoff.

Different era, different game. You better wake up to the new decade. Look at numbers of many 4000 yard passers.

Revis is very physical. I don't know how many times you heard on this board how he gets away with pass interference.

The front seven and back 4 go hand in hand, that is why the Pats won it all with a mediocre CBs in 2004. But the front seven usually influence the back four more than visa versa. The Pats used to like to keep QBs off guards by disguising their rushes and sometimes drop a d-lineman in coverage while rushing an extra LB or DB. That is the type of stuff that made this defense special, not Law holding players. The Pats won a Super Bowl with Law on IR and players like Troy Brown and Earthwind Mooreland playing CB.

Again, you are putting too much emphasis on the holding by DBs. The five yard chuck emphasis was in full effect in 2006 and the Pats still had a great defense. They were second in the league in points allow (only 14.8 PPG allowed) and Asante Samuel was not a physical receiver. The Pats were fourth in the league in INTs, 5th in sacks, and first in fewest passing TDs allowed. That season goes directly against your argument since that season didn't have physical CBs and the Pats ran the same defense.

I am wide away to this decade, you might want to brush up on the Pats' defense. That defense has always been about front seven play. All the way back to the Giants days, Belichick has won with great LBs and so-so CBs. The Pats won Super Bowls with Otis Smith, Tyrone Poole, Randall Gay, Earthwind Mooreland, and Troy Brown playing CB.

As for the speed of the game, you can have size and speed. The Pats went for speed over size the last few years and the defense has gotten progressively worse. If you keep the defense off their guard, it doesn't matter how fast you are. The Pats are more effective at times when they don't get to the QB.

 

[emoney_33]

Have you watched Revis play? He plays like Ty Law did in 2003. He is consistently playing physical football bumping and grabbing at WRs. That is why he beats Randy Moss because Moss doesn't respond well to that style of play.

Or is that the Jets defense is just really good at taking away the oppositions #1, combing schemes, pressure and great ability in Revis? Well looking at ALL #1 WRs playing the Jets, I'd say it's not Moss' response to any 'style'. Revis is a great CB, and that along with safety help and pressure has made Moss' life difficult (as well as everyone else's #1 WR) when playing the Jets.

Sorry, but the Pats style of play in 2003 could work now with the right players. That defense wasn't all about the DBs manhandling the receivers and by saying so actually shows that you have only a shallow understanding of the defense. That defense more often than not was predicated on the play of the front seven, not the back four. I would say that Rodney Harrison had more impact on the 2003 and 2004 defenses than all three other starting DBs combined because he was often used as a fifth LB playing a safety role.

Absolutely agree, it's all predicated on the front 7, and right now we are missing a couple (1 or 2) LBs to have that front 7 success we need. I mean we won with guys like Gay/Samuel (before he was good), Earthwind Moreland in the past not because they were mugging receivers.

 

[Rob0729]

BTW, if speed on defense was the most important thing in this era, why is the Tampa 2 becoming extinct. There is no other defense that relies on speed more than the Tampa 2 and as of right now, there is only one or two teams really running it.

Sorry, teams aren't continuing to copy the Pats because their defense is outdated. They just forgot what makes the defense great - incredible LBs.

 

[emoney_33]

BTW, if speed on defense was the most important thing in this era, why is the Tampa 2 becoming extinct. There is no other defense that relies on speed more than the Tampa 2 and as of right now, there is only one or two teams really running it.

Sorry, teams aren't continuing to copy the Pats because their defense is outdated. They just forgot what makes the defense great - incredible LBs.

Well to be fair, A -> B does not imply B -> A. I'm not saying speed on defense is the most important thing, but just because the Tampa 2 relies on speed doesn't mean speed relies on the Tampa 2.

 

[alvinnf]

Please explain how a 4-3 hides YOUR perception of Merriweather's lack of mental capacity. A completely ignorant statement and totally unfounded.

Do you want a mulligan on that one?

In sub packages of the 43 it is easier to stay 2 high with your safeties or have your safeties end up in halves. While in the 34 in sub packages it's easier to find yourself 3 high. Merriweather plays great downhill and in halves when he only has to deal with half the field. I don't trust him as much ending up in single high(like the 73 yrd TD he gave up to Meecham in NO) nor do I think his strength is playing combo coverage on the outside of 3 high safeties. I do think he would be great playing over the top of nickel D in the 43 where the Wil comes off, the extra CB comes in and he ends up halfing that side.

 

[bigfandan]

First, if fans are smart, they should not complain about Revis; maybe there is a backlash against these ticky calls the league would start to go the other way. You have to say the majority of PI calls are random and arbitrary. I would root for fewer PI calls.

Second, Troy Brown did not play CB seriously; he took a few emergency snaps but he was not a significant part of DBs. Even Randy Moss took a snap at CB/S but really do you have to bring that up?

Third, I think both of us are in agreement that front 7 pressure is the key. My point is that you need to attack QB right off the block because of the PI rules limiting what DBs can do now. I think you'd agree with that approach even though you don't agree with the effects of the rule change.

Revis is very physical. I don't know how many times you heard on this board how he gets away with pass interference.

The front seven and back 4 go hand in hand, that is why the Pats won it all with a mediocre CBs in 2004. But the front seven usually influence the back four more than visa versa. The Pats used to like to keep QBs off guards by disguising their rushes and sometimes drop a d-lineman in coverage while rushing an extra LB or DB. That is the type of stuff that made this defense special, not Law holding players. The Pats won a Super Bowl with Law on IR and players like Troy Brown and Earthwind Mooreland playing CB.

Again, you are putting too much emphasis on the holding by DBs. The five yard chuck emphasis was in full effect in 2006 and the Pats still had a great defense. They were second in the league in points allow (only 14.8 PPG allowed) and Asante Samuel was not a physical receiver. The Pats were fourth in the league in INTs, 5th in sacks, and first in fewest passing TDs allowed. That season goes directly against your argument since that season didn't have physical CBs and the Pats ran the same defense.

I am wide away to this decade, you might want to brush up on the Pats' defense. That defense has always been about front seven play. All the way back to the Giants days, Belichick has won with great LBs and so-so CBs. The Pats won Super Bowls with Otis Smith, Tyrone Poole, Randall Gay, Earthwind Mooreland, and Troy Brown playing CB.

As for the speed of the game, you can have size and speed. The Pats went for speed over size the last few years and the defense has gotten progressively worse. If you keep the defense off their guard, it doesn't matter how fast you are. The Pats are more effective at times when they don't get to the QB.

 

[Rob0729]

First, if fans are smart, they should not complain about Revis; maybe there is a backlash against these ticky calls the league would start to go the other way. You have to say the majority of PI calls are random and arbitrary. I would root for fewer PI calls.

Second, Troy Brown did not play CB seriously; he took a few emergency snaps but he was not a significant part of DBs. Even Randy Moss took a snap at CB/S but really do you have to bring that up?

Third, I think both of us are in agreement that front 7 pressure is the key. My point is that you need to attack QB right off the block because of the PI rules limiting what DBs can do now. I think you'd agree with that approach even though you don't agree with the effects of the rule change.

People will complain when a player from another team that they hate gets away with things that other players don't. Just because they should root for fewer PI calls (which I agree) doesn't really address the argument at hand that Revis is a physical player who does like to bump and grab WRs.

In 2004, Troy Brown had 3 INTs, 17 tackles, and 4 pass defenses. Unless Troy played 24 plays and made an INT, tackle, or PD on every play; he was used far more than you state.

I disagree that you need to attack the QB right off the block. Look at the Jets/Chargers game yesterday. The Chargers were able to pick up the rushes earlier in the game when the Jets were doing straight forward rushes. Rivers got killed after they got creative and had a lot more delayed and disguised rushes. That is what made the Pats special in the early 2000. It was a different defense, but they would keep the opposing QB off their guard with deception and exotic plays more than any speed and that type of defense still works.

 

[emoney_33]

I disagree that you need to attack the QB right off the block. Look at the Jets/Chargers game yesterday. The Chargers were able to pick up the rushes earlier in the game when the Jets were doing straight forward rushes. Rivers got killed after they got creative and had a lot more delayed and disguised rushes. That is what made the Pats special in the early 2000. It was a different defense, but they would keep the opposing QB off their guard with deception and exotic plays more than any speed and that type of defense still works.

Exactly, good defenses all have one thing in common: stopping the run, first and foremost. Indy may be the only exception, where they focus on letting their offense play run defense more or less.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

This Jets defense as it gels the next few years could put the 1985 Bears defense to shame.

I am a little scared as to wonder if the Jets could possibly be one of those "teams of the next decade"...they certainly have the defense all ready set for at least a few years down the road,If they pick up another top flight receiver and retain Leon Washington and pay thier players well then who is going to beat these guys?.

 

[emoney_33]

This Jets defense as it gels the next few years could put the 1985 Bears defense to shame.

I am a little scared as to wonder if the Jets could possibly be one of those "teams of the next decade"...they certainly have the defense all ready set for at least a few years down the road,If they pick up another top flight receiver and retain Leon Washington and pay thier players well then who is going to beat these guys?.

Not only do you doom-and-gloom the Patriots all the time, but now you just put the Jets defense on pace with the 85 Bears!

Get a grip man

 

[bigfandan]

Jets are not that good yet... they were very lucky to win because SD choked and I could have made one of the FGs.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Jets are not that good yet... they were very lucky to win because SD's kicker choked more than twice.

The Jets do have some holes which includes a QB that has yet to HAVE to make the big plays to win because his defense has taken over games and the K/P STs have some improvement to do.

If Sanchez starts to learn how to avoid the dumb throws and Revis continues to take over as leader of that secondary it will cover a lot of those weaknesses.

Lets look at the Jets as a whole


OL - Solid with a few all-pros and one HOFer
QB - Young but managing the game well in the playoffs
RBs - When Washington returns you have Greene,Washington and Thomas..is there a better 3 headed monster than these guys?
DL - If Jenkins returns they are even more stacked and without him they haven't missed a beat
Secondary - Revis is amazing,Kerry Rhodes is outstanding,Leonhard is a solid player and it is contagious to the others out there.
K and STs good but not great....possibly a weakness but not a huge deal

Looks like a solid unit going into the next decade...Cap issues could be a factor down the line but who knows what will happen with the cap?

It sucks to know they are going to be a handful in the East unless Ryan finds a way to screw it up, IMO The Pats days of dominating the division are over for awhile.

 

[Rob0729]

This Jets defense as it gels the next few years could put the 1985 Bears defense to shame.

I am a little scared as to wonder if the Jets could possibly be one of those "teams of the next decade"...they certainly have the defense all ready set for at least a few years down the road,If they pick up another top flight receiver and retain Leon Washington and pay thier players well then who is going to beat these guys?.

Let's not go overboard just yet. Their d-line is old. Shaun Ellis will be 33 next season. So will Marques Douglas. Lito Sheppard is due a large roster bonus or he is a free agent. Kris Jenkins might be done. Bart Scott will be 30 before next season. David Harris is an UFA after next season. If there is no cap, the Jets will be very restricted on what they can do in free agency. And let's not forget the other side of the ball where they have serious question marks with several key players (Thomas Jones, Alan Faneca, and Damien Woody) nearing the end of their careers.

The Jets could be the next elite team or they could be a flash in the pan. They have spent a lot of money on high profile free agents, have a lot of key players nearing the end of their careers, and have drafted a lot of high draft picks. They could be a team that falls apart before they are truly elite or they could restock before they fall apart.

I know the Chicken Little attitude is prevalent here, but a month ago people thought the Jets were dead in the water. Now we are talking that they can be the 1985 Bears?

 

[Rob0729]

The Jets do have some holes which includes a QB that has yet to HAVE to make the big plays to win because his defense has taken over games and the K/P STs have some improvement to do.

If Sanchez starts to learn how to avoid the dumb throws and Revis continues to take over as leader of that secondary it will cover a lot of those weaknesses.

Lets look at the Jets as a whole


OL - Solid with a few all-pros and one HOFer
QB - Young but managing the game well in the playoffs
RBs - When Washington returns you have Greene,Washington and Thomas..is there a better 3 headed monster than these guys?
DL - If Jenkins returns they are even more stacked and without him they haven't missed a beat
Secondary - Revis is amazing,Kerry Rhodes is outstanding,Leonhard is a solid player and it is contagious to the others out there.
K and STs good but not great....possibly a weakness but not a huge deal

Looks like a solid unit going into the next decade...Cap issues could be a factor down the line but who knows what will happen with the cap?

It sucks to know they are going to be a handful in the East unless Ryan finds a way to screw it up, IMO The Pats days of dominating the division are over for awhile.

Let's look at those units again from a different perspective:

OL - Faneca will be 34 by the end of next season, Woody will be 33, Mangold's contract is up after 2010 (several other key players
QB - Sanchez is not a QB who can carry the team. Can be a liability.
RBs - Washington is a free agent after this season. Thomas Jones is going to be 32 next season and RBs hit the age wall hard and fast when they hit it.
DL - Jenkins may never come back (multiple season ending injuries, age concerns, conditioning concerns). Shaun Ellis and Marques Douglas will both be 33 next season. The d-line could end up being a liability next season
Secondary - Revis is great. Jets fans want to cut Kerry Rhodes and has been a disapointment this and last season. Lito Sheppard will most likely be a free agent.
K and STs - Jay Feeley has been great, but he is a free agent.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Let's look at those units again from a different perspective:

OL - Faneca will be 34 by the end of next season, Woody will be 33, Mangold's contract is up after 2010 (several other key players
QB - Sanchez is not a QB who can carry the team. Can be a liability.
RBs - Washington is a free agent after this season. Thomas Jones is going to be 32 next season and RBs hit the age wall hard and fast when they hit it.
DL - Jenkins may never come back (multiple season ending injuries, age concerns, conditioning concerns). Shaun Ellis and Marques Douglas will both be 33 next season. The d-line could end up being a liability next season
Secondary - Revis is great. Jets fans want to cut Kerry Rhodes and has been a disapointment this and last season. Lito Sheppard will most likely be a free agent.
K and STs - Jay Feeley has been great, but he is a free agent.

I don't think 33 is old - Brady will be 33 next season as well and Peyton is doing pretty good as a 33 year old...While being 33 at one position is a bit different the bottom line is 33 years of age is 33 - Some play great while some fade.

Look at the top QBs in this season....Favre at 40 is playing better than Brady and Warner was superb as well

Knowing that Ryan is a defensive guy,That d-line will probably be addressed with some young draft selections early and could be all defense with thier current four 2010 draft picks - Leon Washington could be a trade waiting to happen but no one is paying big for a player coming off a bad leg injury.

I think Kerry Rhodes has played great,I would love him in this secondary,even if he has a big mouth.

The Jets need to continue having great depth by making good decisions in the draft and FA like they have the past 2 years -

The Patriots need those same type moves in this offseason more than ever as well because lately FA moves (both coming in and going out) and the drafts have been nightmares at best

 

[Brady2Welker]

Part of the reason that the Jets/Ravens did so well against us (and others), and a few other teams is because of personnel. Our defense stopped the Colts pass rush pretty effectively because we've evolved our offensive line to stop the outside DE pass rush of teams like the Colts, whereas the Jets (via blitzing) and the Ravens bring tremendous pressure up the gut, as well as from the sides so the quarterback has to step back or to the sides (meeting the edge rushers) and is forced into an early release, or tossing it out.

If any of you watched the Chargers game you could see that rivers was having to pass on the move a lot, because they were bringing tremendous pressure up the center. And although the score didn't reflect it because Tony Oh-No was being ******ed; Ratliff in the second half was bringing significant pressure up the center against Favre.

The only team that was seemingly immune to inside pressure (in the playoffs thus far) was the Colts, but their OL is pretty damn good. And Peyton is also quick on his throws.

And sadly we cant do any of that, because Wilfork is no match doubleteamed, and our other rushers are pathetic.

 

[emoney_33]

And sadly we cant do any of that, because Wilfork is no match doubleteamed, and our other rushers are pathetic.

A healthy Mayo next season in his 3rd year might open up the inside rush for us.

 

[Rob0729]

I don't think 33 is old - Brady will be 33 next season as well and Peyton is doing pretty good as a 33 year old...While being 33 at one position is a bit different the bottom line is 33 years of age is 33 - Some play great while some fade.

Look at the top QBs in this season....Favre at 40 is playing better than Brady and Warner was superb as well

Knowing that Ryan is a defensive guy,That d-line will probably be addressed with some young draft selections early and could be all defense with thier current four 2010 draft picks - Leon Washington could be a trade waiting to happen but no one is paying big for a player coming off a bad leg injury.

I think Kerry Rhodes has played great,I would love him in this secondary,even if he has a big mouth.

The Jets need to continue having great depth by making good decisions in the draft and FA like they have the past 2 years -

The Patriots need those same type moves in this offseason more than ever as well because lately FA moves (both coming in and going out) and the drafts have been nightmares at best

A few things:

- 33 is not old for a QB. For a d-lineman, it is usually close to the end of the line. Different positions age faster than others. If Shaun Ellis was a QB, I wouldn't bring it up. But he is a DE and that means he could decline overnight next season. He might play great into his late 30s, but he would be the exception to the rule. There has been kickers who have played into their mid 40s at a high level, maybe that would mean Ellis will too.
- You may be the only one outside of Kerry Rhodes who thinks he has played great. He has been slammed in NY all season for mailing this season in. Ryan benched the guy because of his play this season.
- The Jets could address the d-line in the draft, but they haven't been 100% on their picks. I got two words for you - Vernon Gholston.
- The Pats are two years removed from going 18-1 and going to the Super Bowl. Let's stop trashing their personnel decisions as if the Pats have been making all the wrong decisions for years and years.