Defensive Front Seven In Fine Shape

[mgteich]

There hasn't been a team since the 85 Bears whose pass defenses wouldn't be improved with a top pass-rushing DE. Add an inside rusher and that is certainly the case.

Belichick added three DE's last year, and now Armstead at DT. You might consider that they might perform better after a year of experience. Until he was injured, Jones was a serious pick for DROY.

Dennard, Dowling and Malcolm Williams are our corners. Let's not make believe that we can have an average pass defense without 2 serious additions at corner. Some would think it is also necessary to draft a safety high in the draft.

Yes, we must decide where to spend resources. I choose the secondary over the front seven, although I am fine with using a draft pick on a DL. I think it more likely that Armstead will be our addition for this year.

There needs to be a bookend passrusher at LDE.
There needs to be an effective inside rusher - maybe Cunningham or Armstead can develop into this. Or hopefully both.
There needs to be an effective coverage LB in the role of Phifer.

With two significant upgrades, this could be a more effective pass defense.

 

[Ring 6]

this seems to sum up most of your posts in this thread, and is what I find kind of nonsensical.

the front 7 is stocked with promising young players, but you don't want to look at their possible future, so your solution is to.......draft an all pro.....?
no, you feel like there aren't enough of these young guys on the team already, so you want to use one of our 3 picks to draft another one and hope he contributes.

if you guys are landing us watt or jpp, that's great, and I'm behind you 100%, but if you're getting us another cunningham, I think we have needs at other positions to spend one of our 3 picks on.
should we not address those weaknesses?

am I supposed to hope your draft pick pans out?
what if he doesn't?

First, we haven't even gotten to the solution, we are still discussing whether we are 'in fine shape'.
To me fine shape in the front 7 means we are very difficult for anyone to run on, and have a dymanic, ferocious pass rush, LBs who aren't lost in coverage, and have good depth.
It seems many are defining 'fine shape' as the wheels aren't falling off.

Tell me, where would this team be (or have been recently) with that kind of front 7? The secondary woes would be invisible with that kind of front 7. Is there any single thing that would be more likely to put the team over the top than a dominating front 7? I don't think that is even debatable.

So, lets look at what we have:

DEs. Jones and Ninkovich, backed up by Cunningham, Francis, Scott,etal
-If Jones becomes a 10 sack guy (that is a euphimism for the level of play not a belief that sack numbers are a good measurement of a player) and above average run defender, is that shocking? It is not 'dominant' unless surrounded by others. If that is what he becomes and he is the best we have, we will not be dominant. Do you want to sit idly hoping he turns out to be more than that?
-Ninkovich is by no means the type of talent that starts on a 'dominant' front 7. Whatever Jones and the rest of the players become, starting Rob Ninkovich at DE pretty much ensures we won't be a ferocious, dominating pass rush team. Sure he will make some plays, but he will continue to be very silent the majority of games.
-The depth has potential, but not have shined, and none have the pedigree to be certain they will.
ADD a LDE who is a top shelf force as a pass rusher, knock Ninkovich back to a reserve, and the potential of a dominant front 7 opens up.

DT
Wilfork. Dominant run defender. Mediocre pass rusher who should not be on the field in obvious passing situations unless we are weak in pass rushers at the position.
Love. JAG who is one of the worst pass rushing DTs in the NFL.
Deaderick. See Love, a little worse vs the run, a tiny bit better as a pass rusher.
Cunningham. Totally undersized as a sub DT, but actually could be disruptive from there with 3 studs around him.
Armstead. Who knows. Do you really believe we should stop looking because we got him? Potentially that other toughh inside pass rusher. I don't think we can count on him being the inside pass rusher we desperately need in the base, until he actually attends an NFL practice.

ADD a pass rushing DT who can either start in the base ahead of Armstead or be a sub package replacement.

We end up with a front 4 base of
Pass rusher TBD-Wilfork-Armstead or better TBD-Jones
THAT has the potential to dominate as a pass rush group in the base, and with Mayo Spikes and Hightower as potential blitzers, THAT is FINE SHAPE.

Sub package brings Cunningham and Armstead/better guy to be acquired at DTs and Ninkovich can back up the DEs.

LB- We need depth.

Conclusion:

Rather than saying we should hope that UDFA Justin Francis can be a starter, or that Canada refugee Armstead will solve our problems, or pencil in Jones as Demetrius Ware and close our eyes, how about we take the chaff out of the equation and surround the talent we have with more talent?

Get a quality, pass rushing force at LDE.
Get a DT who will compete with Armstead as an inside rushing force in the base or a sub package rusher (I'm good with adding one and letting him and Armstead fight for those roles)
Get some NFL caliber LBs to back up the starters. (And if we think Ninkovich can handle backing up DE and OLB, I'm good with that as part of the solution).

I will gladly accept average players plugged in to the rest of the needs if necessary if we can finsih the transformation of the front 7 into the best, most dominant and ferocious one in the NFL. And we will absolutely hoist a Lombardi in 2/14 if that happens.

THAT is FINE SHAPE to me.

Ninkovich, Francis, Cunningham, Forston, Bequette, etc may have potential, but they aren't getting us there.

 

[Ring 6]

There hasn't been a team since the 85 Bears whose pass defenses wouldn't be improved with a top pass-rushing DE. Add an inside rusher and that is certainly the case.

Belichick added three DE's last year, and now Armstead at DT. You might consider that they might perform better after a year of experience. Until he was injured, Jones was a serious pick for DROY.

Dennard, Dowling and Malcolm Williams are our corners. Let's not make believe that we can have an average pass defense without 2 serious additions at corner. Some would think it is also necessary to draft a safety high in the draft.

Yes, we must decide where to spend resources. I choose the secondary over the front seven, although I am fine with using a draft pick on a DL. I think it more likely that Armstead will be our addition for this year.

What good did adding 3 DEs do? Jones was a great addition and gave us some of what Andre Carter did the year before, and should continue to improve.
Bequette couldn't even be good enough to be active. We may as well not have drafted him as far as this year is concerned so how can he really affect what your plans are for next year? All he has shown is he isnt good enough or ready for the league.
Francis was an UDFA who played less than 200 snaps who everyone got excited about because of one game when the other team wasn't blocking anyone. How can you look at the DE position and say lets not try to get better?
The secondary needs players added, but what good are dbs if they are covering forever because we can't sniff the QB?
We need to address BOTH.

 

[mayoclinic]

Get a quality, pass rushing force at LDE.
Get a DT who will compete with Armstead as an inside rushing force in the base or a sub package rusher (I'm good with adding one and letting him and Armstead fight for those roles)
Get some NFL caliber LBs to back up the starters. (And if we think Ninkovich can handle backing up DE and OLB, I'm good with that as part of the solution).

I will gladly accept average players plugged in to the rest of the needs if necessary if we can finish the transformation of the front 7 into the best, most dominant and ferocious one in the NFL. And we will absolutely hoist a Lombardi in 2/14 if that happens.

THAT is FINE SHAPE to me.

:agree:

I'm all for putting a lot of effort into the front 7 and settling for "average" in the rest of the defense, and I agree that that is one of the quickest ways to get over the hump towards a Lombardi Trophy. I think Armstead will hopefully become the pass rushing force at LDE that we need. I'm all for adding another DT inside, who can generate pressure. Ninkovich then becomes "part of the equation" of depth at both DE and OLB, as you say, though I would welcome one more "NFL caliber" LB with coverage ability. Do you have anyone in mind?

 

[Ring 6]

:agree:

I'm all for putting a lot of effort into the front 7 and settling for "average" in the rest of the defense, and I agree that that is one of the quickest ways to get over the hump towards a Lombardi Trophy. I think Armstead will hopefully become the pass rushing force at LDE that we need. I'm all for adding another DT inside, who can generate pressure. Ninkovich then becomes "part of the equation" of depth at both DE and OLB, as you say, though I would welcome one more "NFL caliber" LB with coverage ability. Do you have anyone in mind?

I dont think Armstead can be a force rushing at LDE, but might as a DT.
I want a stud pass rushing LDE. (When we signed Colvin we already had Vrabel and McGinest.)
If in fact ninkovich could be part of the sub LB corps as well, and Fletcher was just resigned, I wuold not feel bad about the depth at LB. We need 5, and I'm good with that group of 5. If Nink is solely at DE (which he may need to be as a #3) we need one more guy. I'm not shooting for the moon, just someone better than Tracy White, Niko Koutivides, or Mike Rivera. In other words a real LB not someone being called a LB because we don't know what else to call them.

 

[Ring 6]

:agree:

I'm all for putting a lot of effort into the front 7 and settling for "average" in the rest of the defense, and I agree that that is one of the quickest ways to get over the hump towards a Lombardi Trophy. I think Armstead will hopefully become the pass rushing force at LDE that we need. I'm all for adding another DT inside, who can generate pressure. Ninkovich then becomes "part of the equation" of depth at both DE and OLB, as you say, though I would welcome one more "NFL caliber" LB with coverage ability. Do you have anyone in mind?

By the way, back to another thread, I'll be fine with the offense taking a step back if necessary.

Give me Brady and the best front 7 in the NFL, fill in the other 45 the best you can, and hoist the Vince.

 

[ausbacker]

By the way, back to another thread, I'll be fine with the offense taking a step back if necessary.

Give me Brady and the best front 7 in the NFL, fill in the other 45 the best you can, and hoist the Vince.

Finally! Something we can agree on Andy.

 

[mgteich]

OK, trade the entire draft for the top pass rusher in this draft. Do you think that it would take LESS than our first three picks? And we can use our $20M to try to fill all needs in the secondary and receiver.

In the end, you, mayo and I would all likely be fine with using our top pick on a pass-rusher. Of course, for you, it is DROY or draft another next year.

What good did the 3 DE's do? Indeed? Give it a year or two. Jones gave us plenty for a rookie. For you, a developmental 3rd rounder is a bust because he doesn't contribute in his first year. As you keep point out, Francis played the 200 snaps instead of Bequette.

You judge. You've been to the hundreds of practices and seen all those camp reps. You know that Jones and Bequette are failures.

And I am prepared for all the criticism if Belcichick decides that he needs to work on our horrible secondary.
=========

Do you think that there is anyone here but DW who wouldn't be very satisfied with an average secondary?

What good did adding 3 DEs do? Jones was a great addition and gave us some of what Andre Carter did the year before, and should continue to improve.
Bequette couldn't even be good enough to be active. We may as well not have drafted him as far as this year is concerned so how can he really affect what your plans are for next year? All he has shown is he isnt good enough or ready for the league.
Francis was an UDFA who played less than 200 snaps who everyone got excited about because of one game when the other team wasn't blocking anyone. How can you look at the DE position and say lets not try to get better?
The secondary needs players added, but what good are dbs if they are covering forever because we can't sniff the QB?
We need to address BOTH.

 

[mayoclinic]

I dont think Armstead can be a force rushing at LDE, but might as a DT. I want a stud pass rushing LDE.

So do I, I just think Armstead can be that guy. We disagree, and we'll have to see. I always preferred a power LDE pass rusher to a speed edge rusher. Just my view.

 

[mayoclinic]

By the way, back to another thread, I'll be fine with the offense taking a step back if necessary.

Give me Brady and the best front 7 in the NFL, fill in the other 45 the best you can, and hoist the Vince.

Well said. I would personally be thrilled to get the best front 7 in the NFL, upgrade the OL a bit, and go back to playing football.

But hoisting Wilfork may be a challenge.

 

[mayoclinic]

One of the best pass rushers - perhaps even the best, from the perspective of fitting in to our team - will almost certainly be a day 2 pick, maybe even early day 3: Tank Carradine of Florida St., who tore his ACL in December. He might not do much in 2014, but he would be a tremendous value pick. He is the most like Chandler Jones of any DE in this draft.

OK, trade the entire draft for the top pass rusher in this draft. Do you think that it would take LESS than our first three picks? And we can use our $20M to try to fill all needs in the secondary and receiver.

In the end, you, mayo and I would all likely be fine with using our top pick on a pass-rusher. Of course, for you, it is DROY or draft another next year.

What good did the 3 DE's do? Indeed? Give it a year or two. Jones gave us plenty for a rookie. For you, a developmental 3rd rounder is a bust because he doesn't contribute in his first year. As you keep point out, Francis played the 200 snaps instead of Bequette.

You judge. You've been to the hundreds of practices and seen all those camp reps. You know that Jones and Bequette are failures.

And I am prepared for all the criticism if Belcichick decides that he needs to work on our horrible secondary.
=========

Do you think that there is anyone here but DW who wouldn't be very satisfied with an average secondary?

 

[Kontradiction]

One of the best pass rushers - perhaps even the best, from the perspective of fitting in to our team - will almost certainly be a day 2 pick, maybe even early day 3: Tank Carradine of Florida St., who tore his ACL in December. He might not do much in 2014, but he would be a tremendous value pick. He is the most like Chandler Jones of any DE in this draft.

From what I saw, Carradine struggled mightily against some of the better OT's he played against. Florida's ability to control him one on one was one of the reasons Driskell had time enough in the pocket to pick them apart, something he didn't do much against anybody in 2012. From what I can tell, he has a bad habit of going completely upright out of his stance and relies too much on his explosion to get to the passer. He could work on that, of course, but with the ACL, I would be wary of drafting Carradine.

 

[tonyto3690]

We don't need to upgrade at the DE spot. Ninkovich is overrated by a lot of our fanbase, but he's a passable starter and isn't a big time need to upgrade.

I'm telling you, it doesn't matter how good the edge rushers are, if your DTs can't generate any push and QBs can just step up in the pocket, it doesn't mean anything. At least it doesn't mean anything without completely sacrificing run containment ala Freeney/Mathis.


Upgrade the 3 tech DT spot next to Wilfork with an above average starter who can collapse the pocket and all of a sudden Chandler/Ninkovich will be having 10-15 sack seasons. And of course when the pass rush is good, all of a sudden the secondary doesn't look quite so awful.

 

[Ring 6]

So do I, I just think Armstead can be that guy. We disagree, and we'll have to see. I always preferred a power LDE pass rusher to a speed edge rusher. Just my view.

Fair enough, but what lets say he is all you hope, and you have him inside next to VW, with Jones and say a guy along the lines of a Wake or someone like that.

 

[Ring 6]

OK, trade the entire draft for the top pass rusher in this draft.

Right, thats what I said.

Do you think that it would take LESS than our first three picks? And we can use our $20M to try to fill all needs in the secondary and receiver.

I am telling you what I think the best way to improve this team is. Disagree if you wish.

In the end, you, mayo and I would all likely be fine with using our top pick on a pass-rusher. Of course, for you, it is DROY or draft another next year.

No for me it is there are 2 DEs and we have 1.

What good did the 3 DE's do? Indeed? Give it a year or two. Jones gave us plenty for a rookie. For you, a developmental 3rd rounder is a bust because he doesn't contribute in his first year. As you keep point out, Francis played the 200 snaps instead of Bequette.

I didn't say they are busts, I said they haven't shown me they should be counted on, and that if we want a dominant front 7, we need to assume guys who couldn't be even JAGS this year won't be part of it (unless just as depth) until they prove otherwise.
Are you saying leave the DE position alone because we had a 3rd round pick who may develop and an UDFA who only played because the 3rd rounder hasn't developed?

You judge. You've been to the hundreds of practices and seen all those camp reps. You know that Jones and Bequette are failures.

You are joking right?
When did I even imply Jones was a failure?
You are mocking me for not counting on Bequette because you think he may not be a failure? I didn't say cut him, I said get someone who we expect to do better than be inactive all year. If he develops, great.

And I am prepared for all the criticism if Belcichick decides that he needs to work on our horrible secondary.

Why would YOU get criticism for what BB does? That is a bizarre comment.



=========

Do you think that there is anyone here but DW who wouldn't be very satisfied with an average secondary?

I frankly don't care what posters or fans would be satisfied with, but the best front 7 in the NFL paired with an average secondary would be a dynamic, dramatic and earth shattering improvement in this defense.

 

[mayoclinic]

We don't need to upgrade at the DE spot. Ninkovich is overrated by a lot of our fanbase, but he's a passable starter and isn't a big time need to upgrade.

I'm telling you, it doesn't matter how good the edge rushers are, if your DTs can't generate any push and QBs can just step up in the pocket, it doesn't mean anything. At least it doesn't mean anything without completely sacrificing run containment ala Freeney/Mathis.

Upgrade the 3 tech DT spot next to Wilfork with an above average starter who can collapse the pocket and all of a sudden Chandler/Ninkovich will be having 10-15 sack seasons. And of course when the pass rush is good, all of a sudden the secondary doesn't look quite so awful.

I personally think that Armstead projects to LDE, moving inside on passing downs, so finding a pass rushing DE is less of a priority to me than finding an "above average starter" 3-tech in the base D who can generate more pressure than Kyle Love. Because it's a very deep DT class, the Pats might get someone in the 2nd round with superior talent. Guys like Sylvester Williams and Bennie Logan could be real sleepers.

 

[Urgent]

There hasn't been a team since the 85 Bears whose pass defenses wouldn't be improved with a top pass-rushing DE. Add an inside rusher and that is certainly the case.

Belichick added three DE's last year, and now Armstead at DT. You might consider that they might perform better after a year of experience. Until he was injured, Jones was a serious pick for DROY.

Dennard, Dowling and Malcolm Williams are our corners. Let's not make believe that we can have an average pass defense without 2 serious additions at corner. Some would think it is also necessary to draft a safety high in the draft.

Yes, we must decide where to spend resources. I choose the secondary over the front seven, although I am fine with using a draft pick on a DL. I think it more likely that Armstead will be our addition for this year.

Oh, right there with you that the secondary must be improved.

I was disagreeing with the premise that the front seven is in fine shape. Doesn't mean it's an either-or, improve one or the other.

 

[Deus Irae]

Interesting thread. To read what's been added today, you'd swear it was the front seven that was the weakness and not the secondary.

 

[eom]

look, every one of 32 teams wants a dominant front 7 --- nobody on this board is telling you they don't want one, but right now our entire secondary consists of about 3 dudes, and we may be losing a RT.
what scheme do you plan to run on d -- 4-5-2?
because then we'd need a dominant front 9 and a couple more lb that can cover really well.

 

[Ring 6]

look, every one of 32 teams wants a dominant front 7 --- nobody on this board is telling you they don't want one, but right now our entire secondary consists of about 3 dudes, and we may be losing a RT.
what scheme do you plan to run on d -- 4-5-2?
because then we'd need a dominant front 9 and a couple more lb that can cover really well.

So since every team wants a strong front 7 we shouldn't?
Where did I say ignore the secondary?
I'm taking about adding a starting de, pass rushing dt and depth at lb.
When did that mean don't do anything in the secondary?
A great pass rush will help the secondary as much as improving coverage.
Or we can go through a whole season then watch an average offense drive right shown the field for 3 straight tds while facing 1 single 3rd down because no one can get close enough to breath I the qb.
Save your indigence and open your eyes


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