Defensive Front Seven In Fine Shape

[EwanSellars]

i know kawann short is a great penetrating DT but what is Hankins is he more a pass rusher or run stuffer or is he well rounded?

 

[Fencer]

The ideal scenario - if he pans out - would be for Armond Armstead to be the LDE in the "base" and then move inside on sub packages as the DT, with Ninkovich at DE. But I'm sure a variety of formations will be used, depending on the team and their strengths.

Agreed. Not crazy for a third-round talent, but also not the only way it could go.

If Ninkovich gets any kind of regular breather, the first place to look is DE on base downs. That's when he faces the biggest size mismatches.

 

[Ring 6]

I think that's really a little unfair seeing as how jones, francis, and hightower were all rookies last year, and jones had some ankle issues half the year, it seemed like.

you have to realize it's pretty common for pass rushers to improve off a rookie year, and they have some other very young guys in forston, armstead, and benard in the mix, now -- if those guys manage to do anything.

I don't know if it means anything, seeing as how bequette didn't play much this past year, but when tim ryan and pat kirwan were in pats camp, it was bequette that they were high on rather than jones, and that's another 2nd year guy.

But I am trying to look at this objectively, not with hope.
Jones had a nice rookie year, but ultimately not what we hoped. To immediately call him a stud is being optimistic.
Is it beyond belief that he could become a Bryan Thomas, Calvin Pace, Cameron Wembley, Manny Lawson kind of player and not a Clay Matthews, Jared Allen, Dwight Freeney?
Doesn't it make sense to build the team preparing for the former until he proves he is the later?
I would take a similar approach with Hightower.

Francis, Forston, Bequette, Armstead, Bernard are all guys who are longshots to help, much less transform the front 7.
Perhaps they will improve by leaps and bounds, but it would be foolish to count on it.

I'm trying to deal in what we are, not take an optimistic view of the best case.

 

[Fencer]

- Rookie Steeler's castoff Mike Vrabel

I don't think "rookie" is the precise word you were looking for.

 

[Ring 6]

Agreed. Not crazy for a third-round talent, but also not the only way it could go.

If Ninkovich gets any kind of regular breather, the first place to look is DE on base downs. That's when he faces the biggest size mismatches.

I'd prefer to play Armstead at DT full time (assuming he is what he is purported to be) and find a better pass rusher than Nink to play LDE full time.
Take Wilfork out on passing downs and bring in Cunningham, or another newly acquired inside pass rusher.
Ninkovich would be a good 3rd DE, rotating in behind the new LDE and Jones.

On the other hand, we could flip the base to a 34, and go
Armstead-Wilfork-TBD
Hightower-Mayo-Spikes-Jones
where hopefully TBD is a capable pass rusher.
Then the sub package would be the same as above

 

[mgteich]

Yes, draft another Seymour and we'd be good to go.

I'd prefer to play Armstead at DT full time (assuming he is what he is purported to be) and find a better pass rusher than Nink to play LDE full time.
Take Wilfork out on passing downs and bring in Cunningham, or another newly acquired inside pass rusher.
Ninkovich would be a good 3rd DE, rotating in behind the new LDE and Jones.

On the other hand, we could flip the base to a 34, and go
Armstead-Wilfork-TBD
Hightower-Mayo-Spikes-Jones
where hopefully TBD is a capable pass rusher.
Then the sub package would be the same as above

 

[Ring 6]

Yes, draft another Seymour and we'd be good to go.

Too much to ask, but I would rather go 290 with pass rush skills than 320 and a run stuffer.
We can always bring the Deadericks, Loves, Forstons, etc off the bench to play DE if we are struggling against the run, but a pass rush that can have an impact on every down for 60 minutes in my opinion is the one single change that gives us the best chance of getting over the top and winning not just one, multiple more SBs.

 

[Deus Irae]

Yes, draft another Seymour and we'd be good to go.

You say that glibly, but it really is symptomatic of the situation. BB's drafts, post-2005 have had some good players, but from 2006-2011, where are the defensive elites that have been drafted, and what positions are they at? It's too soon to tell about 2011, so we're looking at Mayo (and some here would argue against him) and ....... who?

 

[mgteich]

Low-risk game changing DE's are usually long gone by the 20th pick in the draft.

Too much to ask, but I would rather go 290 with pass rush skills than 320 and a run stuffer.
We can always bring the Deadericks, Loves, Forstons, etc off the bench to play DE if we are struggling against the run, but a pass rush that can have an impact on every down for 60 minutes in my opinion is the one single change that gives us the best chance of getting over the top and winning not just one, multiple more SBs.

 

[mayoclinic]

I see strength, but not enough, and I think making the moves that really would turn this into an elite front 7 might be the best thing BB could do to get this team over the top.

I've been advocating prioritizing the DL and OL for 2013 since the day the 2012 draft ended. I think that the front 7 is one of the premium impact aras of the team, and I 100% agree with the philosophy of continuing to invest in it until it gets to the "elite" status - and probably even then, because you can't have enough depth at DL, and it's a good formula for success to "overload" up front. I'd personally much rather add impact players on the front 7 than DBs or WRs.

For me, being relatively "happy" with where our DL is means that I'm ok with it as a starting point, not as an end point. But I think we're pretty much in the same place, give or take a view minor differences.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Everyteam in the league can use a 6-8 sack defensive tackle. They dont grow on trees infact only show up every few years or so. Make a trade for Ndamakung suh?

Isn't he in jail yet? Last I heard he was having run ins with the law. Not exactly the type of guy you want to invest draft picks in with all the character isses. I'd rather see what we can unearth in this year's draft.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...rtedly-lied-to-portland-police-after-accident

 

[MTM558]

But I am trying to look at this objectively, not with hope.
Jones had a nice rookie year, but ultimately not what we hoped. To immediately call him a stud is being optimistic.
Is it beyond belief that he could become a Bryan Thomas, Calvin Pace, Cameron Wembley, Manny Lawson kind of player and not a Clay Matthews, Jared Allen, Dwight Freeney?
Doesn't it make sense to build the team preparing for the former until he proves he is the later?
I would take a similar approach with Hightower.

Francis, Forston, Bequette, Armstead, Bernard are all guys who are longshots to help, much less transform the front 7.
Perhaps they will improve by leaps and bounds, but it would be foolish to count on it.

I'm trying to deal in what we are, not take an optimistic view of the best case.

What exact hope and expectations were there for Jones this season? Since he was drafted, the large majority of analysts and board members were declaring him to be a situational pass rusher at best until he honed his skills. The fact that he became our starting RDE in the middle of training camp was a surprise to all, even the coaches. If anyone had a "disappointing" Rookie season out of our 1st Rounders, it was Hightower. But even then he seemed to catch on toward the end of the season. Jones and Hightower both dealt with injury and the general rookie ups and downs and should be expected to grow and learn from them for next season.

I don't understand why many people think rookies are going to make a big impact on a team. They're rookies. They have no idea what the NFL is about. Maybe the top 5 or so have that freakish talent to step in and defy those odds, but when it comes to any other rookie (1st rounder or not), expectations need to be lowered across the board.

However, going into the second season of a rookie's development, we can expect to see significant growth. We saw it with Spikes (before injury), Mayo, Chung (before sucking the following 2 years), just to name a few. Want other examples? J.J. Watt and JPP. Average rookie seasons at best, monster 2nd seasons.

In no way am I comparing Jones and Hightower to Watt or JPP, but they stand as the standard for what a rookie pass rusher can possibly become.

To dismiss the future impact of Jones and Hightower is foolish. Take it in moderation, yes, but you can't continue to build and develop a team if you can't expect your rookies to take on a more dynamic role in year 2. No matter what happens, Jones and Hightower are starters, and will continue to be them until they prove they CAN'T handle the job, or until someone better comes along. There is nobody better on this team, and in the Draft and FA, the same probably stands as well.

One area I do agree with you on is our depth along the DL. Wilfork is a stud, Jones flashed early before injury, but you can't deny the talent and potential is there for greatness. Ninkovich was most definitely clutch and consistent but I would like someone bigger and more established at rushing the passer.

Moving away from starters, our depth is very much lacking. All the hype is with Armstead, but we can't ensure he'll even survive TC. He just may not be as good as we think. Forston, Francis, Bernard... these guys are just JAGS. Nothing special, and not having quality depth can hurt a team. The model for depth along a DL should be the Giants.


** On Bequette, he was productive in College, but never broke through this year. Discouraging, yes, but don't dismiss him just yet.

 

[cstjohn17]

Yes, we need camp competition (including vets like this year's Scott). We already have camp bodies Robertson and Benard. However, we are in the best shape in years.

And sure I'd like to add a quality pass-rusher. So would every fan of every team.

Certainly the front seven is a strength but IMO they have to move to elite to cover for the secondary. I don't see new CBs and Safeties coming in by the dozen to save the backfield.

DT
- As mentioned, an interior pass rush (Jarvis Green type), Cunningham did ok in this role, just ok. Maybe Armstead can help.
- Also a better rotation at DT, once Love went down the Patriots were doomed.

LB
- Very strong against the run but deficient against the pass.
- A coverage LB is really needed for sub packages. Spikes should be a two down player.

 

[mgteich]

So, we NEED to move or DL to elite by adding a quality DT and DE because it is a given that our secondary will suck?????????

It seems much better to use more of our resources on the secondary.

Certainly the front seven is a strength but IMO they have to move to elite to cover for the secondary. I don't see new CBs and Safeties coming in by the dozen to save the backfield.

DT
- As mentioned, an interior pass rush (Jarvis Green type), Cunningham did ok in this role, just ok. Maybe Armstead can help.
- Also a better rotation at DT, once Love went down the Patriots were doomed.

LB
- Very strong against the run but deficient against the pass.
- A coverage LB is really needed for sub packages. Spikes should be a two down player.

 

[Ring 6]

What exact hope and expectations were there for Jones this season? Since he was drafted, the large majority of analysts and board members were declaring him to be a situational pass rusher at best until he honed his skills.

That is simply ridiculous. He wasn't drafted where he was with those expectations. You have to take the postings of message board members who as something well less than quality analysis.

The fact that he became our starting RDE in the middle of training camp was a surprise to all, even the coaches.

No it wasn't.

If anyone had a "disappointing" Rookie season out of our 1st Rounders, it was Hightower. But even then he seemed to catch on toward the end of the season. Jones and Hightower both dealt with injury and the general rookie ups and downs and should be expected to grow and learn from them for next season.

I thought Hightower was just as expected.

I don't understand why many people think rookies are going to make a big impact on a team. They're rookies. They have no idea what the NFL is about. Maybe the top 5 or so have that freakish talent to step in and defy those odds, but when it comes to any other rookie (1st rounder or not), expectations need to be lowered across the board.

However, going into the second season of a rookie's development, we can expect to see significant growth. We saw it with Spikes (before injury), Mayo, Chung (before sucking the following 2 years), just to name a few. Want other examples? J.J. Watt and JPP. Average rookie seasons at best, monster 2nd seasons.

I don't understand your point.

In no way am I comparing Jones and Hightower to Watt or JPP, but they stand as the standard for what a rookie pass rusher can possibly become.

I still don't understand your point.
You want to build a football team by planning on every player reaching what the best at his position is?

To dismiss the future impact of Jones and Hightower is foolish.

I agree. Who did that?

Take it in moderation, yes, but you can't continue to build and develop a team if you can't expect your rookies to take on a more dynamic role in year 2.

So I don't want to improve the front 7, but instead hope they get better and become allpros? What if they don't?

No matter what happens, Jones and Hightower are starters, and will continue to be them until they prove they CAN'T handle the job, or until someone better comes along. There is nobody better on this team, and in the Draft and FA, the same probably stands as well.

I agree. Who said otherwise?
We still are saddled with Nink, Love, Deaderick, and whoever would be called the backup LB playing big roles. Should we not address those weaknesses?

One area I do agree with you on is our depth along the DL. Wilfork is a stud, Jones flashed early before injury, but you can't deny the talent and potential is there for greatness. Ninkovich was most definitely clutch and consistent but I would like someone bigger and more established at rushing the passer.

Moving away from starters, our depth is very much lacking. All the hype is with Armstead, but we can't ensure he'll even survive TC. He just may not be as good as we think. Forston, Francis, Bernard... these guys are just JAGS. Nothing special, and not having quality depth can hurt a team. The model for depth along a DL should be the Giants.

Sounds similar to my opinon that you seem to want to disagree with.

** On Bequette, he was productive in College, but never broke through this year. Discouraging, yes, but don't dismiss him just yet.

It would be a bigger mistake to rely on him than to doubt him.

 

[Kontradiction]

IMO, I think that an extra pass rusher is kind of a no-brainer at this point. The Patriots weren't exactly the '85 Bears this season. That said, most teams in the NFL could use an extra boost to their pass rush. IMO, the defense isn't that far off. We could use, in my estimation, a 3-4 DE/4-3 DT, at least one hard hitting safety, and nickel CB to replace Arrington. That, along with a boost in the pass rush and re-signing Talib, would make this a pretty tough defense to move the ball against.

 

[eom]

So I don't want to improve the front 7, but instead hope they get better and become allpros? What if they don't?

this seems to sum up most of your posts in this thread, and is what I find kind of nonsensical.

the front 7 is stocked with promising young players, but you don't want to look at their possible future, so your solution is to.......draft an all pro.....?
no, you feel like there aren't enough of these young guys on the team already, so you want to use one of our 3 picks to draft another one and hope he contributes.

if you guys are landing us watt or jpp, that's great, and I'm behind you 100%, but if you're getting us another cunningham, I think we have needs at other positions to spend one of our 3 picks on.
should we not address those weaknesses?

am I supposed to hope your draft pick pans out?
what if he doesn't?

 

[cstjohn17]

So, we NEED to move our DL to elite by adding a quality DT and DE because it is a given that our secondary will suck?????????

It seems much better to use more of our resources on the secondary.

Yep, you got it. Although I don't think I said anything about DE, I think we are pretty good at DE. IMO it will be a better use of resources to tweak and add on the front seven because it is pretty close.

It will take a lot of resources (money / draft picks / miracles to get the secondary to anything above "average" or "ok". I could be wrong but the Patriots need to add the following items to the secondary:
Starting CB - big $
Improved Safety play - draft pick or medium $

Without these items the secondary remains among the middle of the pack (or lower).

 

[tonyto3690]

The past three playoff losses were because of a culmination of reasons. But on defense there is one thing I can say for certain was our biggest issue.

Our interior dl didn't do anything the entire game. Against the ravens last year we got by the ravens because wilfork played the greatest game of his career by far and completely obliterated birk.

Having edge rushers mean absolutely nothing if your interior line doesn't give an inch and you can just step into the pocket as ninkovich goes flying by. Love/deaderick have been given double teams in these games and done absolutely NOTHING. Wilfork can't be expected to beat double teams every down and when you have a 330 pound tackle going 1v1 against a guard, he should be able to do more than fall backwards. He needs to win that.

The interior pass rush has been an issue for years. Bb tried to fix it with signing red Bryant and then fanene and putting Cunningham at dt but none of those plans were relevant in the playoffs vs the ravens and we saw Flacco throw deep bombs without any worry of stepping up and getting hit because I'm convinced wilfork was hurt and love went down and deaderick was garbage.

 

[Urgent]

I disagree.

This is a front seven designed to stop the run.

Wilfork is primarily a two-gap NT.
Love and Pryor are lesser versions of run-stuffing two-gap DT's.

Ninkovich is a versatile edge-setting DE/OLB, but not a premier pass-rusher.

The three primary LB's are all Mike-types.
Mayo is a former ILB, tackling machine.
Spikes is a pure MLB with very limited coverage abilities and lack of speed, but big hitter.
Hightower is a hybrid OLB/ILB.

Jones looks like he could be a good pass rusher. But that's one guy in the starting line-up.

The back-ups are similar.
Fletcher is another MLB type.
Tarpinian, White, Koutovides are pure ST linebackers.
Jermaine Cunningham is a big edge-setting LDE or inside rusher, but not an edge rusher. Scott and Bequette are average back-ups.

This is a front seven designed to block the A & B gaps and set the edge. It's designed to prevent the inside run and force the runner outside. There is only one guy who is a pass-rush first player.

This is a passing league.

Forget the statistics for sacks, which Belichick says are over-rated. They are not great. But look at the amount of pressure the Patriots generate on passers. Look at the records of passers, especially below-average passers, against the Patriots over the past two seasons.

In years past, there were at least designated pass rushers, like Jarvis Green, Rosevelt Colvin, Tully Banta-Cain. There were also designated coverage players, like Roman Phifer and Don Davis.

I don't think the Patriots can significantly improve their defensive pressure with the same cast. They need to generate more pressure. They need to improve coverage over the middle.

I struggle with a starting LB trio of Hightower, Spikes, and Mayo against the pass. I struggle with a starting DL of Ninkovich, Pryor/Love/Deaderick, Wilfork, and Jones against the pass. Individually that's a lot of talent. As a unit, I think it is above average against the run, but consistently beaten against the pass. And that's a weakness a lot of teams can very consisently exploit.

I think this team needs a significant upgrade at third down front seven.

There needs to be a bookend passrusher at LDE.
There needs to be an effective inside rusher - maybe Cunningham or Armstead can develop into this. Or hopefully both.
There needs to be an effective coverage LB in the role of Phifer.

With two significant upgrades, this could be a more effective pass defense.