Defensive Front Seven - A Strength?

[RayClay]

Looking forward, there is little reason to believe a full season of Siliga and Branch won't mostly offset Wilfork, particularly if Easley can give them some rest on passing downs (and it's not like you can't slow down a run game with penetration, either).

I was looking at running plays in the super Bowl in slow motion and I'd say we there is a lot of reason to beliee those two come nowhere near to replacing Wilfork. Branch was handled by one lineman and moved around like a blocking sled while Siliga was often caught up in traffic and ended up on the ground. Wilfork was doubled on every play and either defeated it to clog the lane, or rode it back to end up right where the ball carrier was.

I'm sure most people have some sort of copy of the super bowl. watch Lynch's first half runs.

We don't need depth at DL, that's what we have. we need one dynamic DT who can force the action and take on double teams. Branch and Siliga are Jags. As Parcells said, [way before it is what it is], you are what you are. Wilfork is an aging all pro, we have backups and rotation players and undersized DL left.

 

[RayClay]

Interesting observation by Steelers Tomlin and big mistake [IMO] by Reiss.

Steelers coach Mike Tomlin said one thing that has stood out to him is that “if you’re in the edge-rusher market, whether you define them as defensive ends or outside linebackers, this draft is rich in that area.” As for the Patriots, they are already deep at that spot with Chandler Jones (2016), Rob Ninkovich (2016), Jabaal Sheard (2016), Michael Buchanan (2016), Zach Moore (2017) and Jake Bequette (2016), so for them it’s a case where demand doesn’t seem to align with the supply.

Yes, Reiss fell victim to the "list of names" syndrome. Jones and Nink played almost every snap when healthy for a reason. A guy relegated to special teams was picked up and became our second most effective rusher for a reason.

When you actually list Jake Bequette as a factor showing you're strong at a position, you need to recheck that list. Where was Moore, why did Buchanan get benched, does a guy who hasn't even shown up yet count as strength at the position?

Shame on you, Mike. Of course I'd love a great DT or CB to fall to us in the draft, but it's crazy to say we wouldn't pick a pass rusher, if the best available at the pick, because we have a list of names who, frankly, have delivered only in our imaginations, so far.

 

[Ivan]

Interesting observation by Steelers Tomlin and big mistake [IMO] by Reiss.



Yes, Reiss fell victim to the "list of names" syndrome. Jones and Nink played almost every snap when healthy for a reason. A guy relegated to special teams was picked up and became our second most effective rusher for a reason.

When you actually list Jake Bequette as a factor showing you're strong at a position, you need to recheck that list. Where was Moore, why did Buchanan get benched, does a guy who hasn't even shown up yet count as strength at the position?

Shame on you, Mike. Of course I'd love a great DT or CB to fall to us in the draft, but it's crazy to say we wouldn't pick a pass rusher, if the best available at the pick, because we have a list of names who, frankly, have delivered only in our imaginations, so far.

Agree on DT but disagree on pass rushers. Jones, Ninkovich, Collins, Hightower, and Sheard give them a strong group of pass rushers but the interior DL is a concern. I think Patriot fans overrate Siliga and Branch and Chris Jones is really a passing down tackle. Hopefully Easeley steps up because they really need him to live up to his pick. Buchanon and Moore have shown nothing yet and I have to seriously question the stability of anyone who actually utters Jake Bequettes name other than in a joke.

 

[RayClay]

Agree on DT but disagree on pass rushers. Jones, Ninkovich, Collins, Hightower, and Sheard give them a strong group of pass rushers but the interior DL is a concern. I think Patriot fans overrate Siliga and Branch and Chris Jones is really a passing down tackle. Hopefully Easeley steps up because they really need him to live up to his pick. Buchanon and Moore have shown nothing yet and I have to seriously question the stability of anyone who actually utters Jake Bequettes name other than in a joke.

Then why have nink and Jones played almost every snap?

Just saying, if it's a strong class and we don't pick til thirty two, how can we rule it out? Remember, there's no Revis and Browner to put the clamps on. We need a better pass rush.

Can't be picky when you pick 32.

 

[mgteich]

Interesting observation by Steelers Tomlin and big mistake [IMO] by Reiss.



Yes, Reiss fell victim to the "list of names" syndrome. Jones and Nink played almost every snap when healthy for a reason. A guy relegated to special teams was picked up and became our second most effective rusher for a reason.

When you actually list Jake Bequette as a factor showing you're strong at a position, you need to recheck that list. Where was Moore, why did Buchanan get benched, does a guy who hasn't even shown up yet count as strength at the position?

Shame on you, Mike. Of course I'd love a great DT or CB to fall to us in the draft, but it's crazy to say we wouldn't pick a pass rusher, if the best available at the pick, because we have a list of names who, frankly, have delivered only in our imaginations, so far.

I'm a bit confused.

Belichick's defense did fine with Ninkovich and Jones at DE, with Ayers as the backup, and with Moore/Buchanan as the emergency backup.

Posters (including me) have been begging for a top quality DE good enough to give Ninkovich and Jones some rest. We have been told for two years that such a players wasn't worth much, since tho DE would be a backup.

Well, finally, Belichick found a quality DE is Sheard. The problem has been solved.
=========

I'm fine with drafting a TOP DE who would be expected to replace Ninkovich in 2016, but I think that there will be better options with our first pick at CB, OG and DT.

 

[RayClay]

I'm a bit confused.

Belichick's defense did fine with Ninkovich and Jones at DE, with Ayers as the backup, and with Moore/Buchanan as the emergency backup.

Posters (including me) have been begging for a top quality DE good enough to give Ninkovich and Jones some rest. We have been told for two years that such a players wasn't worth much, since tho DE would be a backup.

Well, finally, Belichick found a quality DE is Sheard. The problem has been solved.
=========

I'm fine with drafting a TOP DE who would be expected to replace Ninkovich in 2016, but I think that there will be better options with our first pick at CB, OG and DT.

We had Revis and Browner playing man to man and had extra time to get to the passer.

Sheard has solved all our problems months before camp? How does that work?

He had 2 sacks last year and 5.5 the year before in 13 starts.

I have to wonder if you're serious.

Derick Burgess and Shaun Ellis say hello, by the way.

 

[RayClay]

I'm fine with drafting a TOP DE who would be expected to replace Ninkovich in 2016, but I think that there will be better options with our first pick at CB, OG and DT.

My projection is based on Tomlinson saying there'll be an abundance of pass rushers.

You don't get to decide which position you draft when your highest pick is 32, unless you are one of those loser organizations who don't evaluate the best talent available at the pick, and end up trying to fill the same spot year after year because they only draft for need and so have a high bust rate.

They could easily draft DE/OLB, DT CB safety, WR RB OG OT without hitting a position they're completely set at.

BB doesn't make the pick, then try to invent the player to fit it.

 

[Ivan]

Interesting observation by Steelers Tomlin and big mistake [IMO] by Reiss.



Yes, Reiss fell victim to the "list of names" syndrome. Jones and Nink played almost every snap when healthy for a reason. A guy relegated to special teams was picked up and became our second most effective rusher for a reason.

When you actually list Jake Bequette as a factor showing you're strong at a position, you need to recheck that list. Where was Moore, why did Buchanan get benched, does a guy who hasn't even shown up yet count as strength at the position?

Shame on you, Mike. Of course I'd love a great DT or CB to fall to us in the draft, but it's crazy to say we wouldn't pick a pass rusher, if the best available at the pick, because we have a list of names who, frankly, have delivered only in our imaginations, so far.

Agree on DT but disagree on pass rushers. Jones, Ninkovich, Collins, Hightower, and Sheard give them a strong group of pass rushers but the interior DL is a concern. I think Patriot fans overrate Siliga and Branch and Chris Jones is really a passing down tackle. Hopefully Easeley steps up because they really need him to live up to his pick. Buchanon and Moore have shown nothing yet and I have to seriously question the stability of anyone who actually utters Jake Bequettes name other than in a joke.

Then why have nink and Jones played almost every snap?

Just saying, if it's a strong class and we don't pick til thirty two, how can we rule it out? Remember, there's no Revis and Browner to put the clamps on. We need a better pass rush.

Can't be picky when you pick 32.

By the time Patriots pick the run on pass rushers will be long over and they will get the sixth to seventh best pass rusher in the draft when they could get the third or CB or OL I'm fine with them picking a number of positions but don't want them reaching to fill a need.

 

[RayClay]

Agree on DT but disagree on pass rushers. Jones, Ninkovich, Collins, Hightower, and Sheard give them a strong group of pass rushers but the interior DL is a concern. I think Patriot fans overrate Siliga and Branch and Chris Jones is really a passing down tackle. Hopefully Easeley steps up because they really need him to live up to his pick. Buchanon and Moore have shown nothing yet and I have to seriously question the stability of anyone who actually utters Jake Bequettes name other than in a joke.



By the time Patriots pick the run on pass rushers will be long over and they will get the sixth to seventh best pass rusher in the draft when they could get the third or CB or OL I'm fine with them picking a number of positions but don't want them reaching to fill a need.

My post was based on the premise that tomlinson said it was a strong class. If there's any position where you're not sure the best coming out of the gate it's pass rusher. Vernon gholston was picked just about where he was projected.

I'm sure the Patriots don't decide until they see how it plays out.

 

[mgteich]

We had Revis and Browner playing man to man and had extra time to get to the passer.

Sheard has solved all our problems months before camp? How does that work?

He had 2 sacks last year and 5.5 the year before in 13 starts.

I have to wonder if you're serious.

Derick Burgess and Shaun Ellis say hello, by the way.

Belichick thought he enough at DE last year with Ninlovich, Jones, Moore, Buchanan and Easley. He also had the the ability to activate Vellano as a 3-4 DE.

As you point out, Wilfork was essential to our run defense in 2014.

So, Belichick adds Sheard at DE and loses Wilfork. What should our conclusion be with regard to needs on the defensive line. Mine is that Belichick has addressed the DE position to make it much better than in 2014, and that there is a serious hole to fill at DT.

Clearly, Belichick could pick at almost any position at 32, if the value is high enough (IMHO almost any position except QB, TE, C, S and Special Teams. That being said, we have serious needs at CB, DT, and OG. Personally, I would be surprised if our pick is not one of these three positions, although I could understand drafting a running back.

 

[mgteich]

We had Revis and Browner playing man to man and had extra time to get to the passer.

Sheard has solved all our problems months before camp? How does that work?

He had 2 sacks last year and 5.5 the year before in 13 starts.

I have to wonder if you're serious.

Derick Burgess and Shaun Ellis say hello, by the way.

Belichick thought he enough at DE last year with Ninlovich, Jones, Moore, Buchanan and Easley. He also had the the ability to activate Vellano as a 3-4 DE.

As you point out, Wilfork was essential to our run defense in 2014.

So, Belichick adds Sheard at DE and loses Wilfork. What should our conclusion be with regard to needs on the defensive line. Mine is that Belichick has addressed the DE position to make it much better than in 2014, and that there is a serious hole to fill at DT.

Clearly, Belichick could pick at almost any position at 32, if the value is high enough (IMHO almost any position except QB, TE, C, S and Special Teams. That being said, we have serious needs at CB, DT, and OG. Personally, I would be surprised if our pick is not one of these three positions, although I could understand drafting a running back. Basically, we have HOLES, created by the losses of Revis, Wilfork and Connolly.

 

[RayClay]

You seriously wrote Vellano? He wasn't an NFL player playing next to Wilfork.

They need an impact DT and any cornerback help, but, picking at 32, they are left with what's available at 32, or trade it.

If there's a DE/olb they like available and the predictable leftovers at CB and DT look like they aren't necessarily better than what's left at those positions [crap shoot] why wouldn't they pull the trigger?

People seem to think a 32 pick is going to step right in and start? I doubt that. This is basically a second round pick, they will be worked in and learn the system, no matter what position they are.

This isn't a top 10-15 pick. They won't have much choice about which position shows a somewhat special player, if any.

Between the draft and free agency, if the name Vellano is even mentioned as possibly making this team, we are in serious trouble.

We have one undersized injured DT who could possibly be a top NFL player and a collection of jags right now. We don't have a top lineman and, without Wilfork, probably don't have a decent rotation. That's just the fact.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

I want a dominate pass rush...we will need more of a pass rush then last year for this secondary I think.

But injuries will happen...we need all the depth ect we can get

 

[RayClay]

I could see picking a safety. We basically have needs that might not be filled in the draft and a lot of mid round picks that could be used for value or gambles. they have one borderline second rounder and need to come up with as player, not the 6th best cornerback or the fifth best DT in a draft that has two impact starters.

 

[RayClay]

I want a dominate pass rush...we will need more of a pass rush then last year for this secondary I think

That's definitely part of it.

 

[Ivan]

I could see picking a safety. We basically have needs that might not be filled in the draft and a lot of mid round picks that could be used for value or gambles. they have one borderline second rounder and need to come up with as player, not the 6th best cornerback or the fifth best DT in a draft that has two impact starters.

This is a really bad draft for safeties.

 

[Ivan]

I could see picking a safety. We basically have needs that might not be filled in the draft and a lot of mid round picks that could be used for value or gambles. they have one borderline second rounder and need to come up with as player, not the 6th best cornerback or the fifth best DT in a draft that has two impact starters.

This is a really bad draft for safeties.

 

[Oswlek]

I was looking at running plays in the super Bowl in slow motion and I'd say we there is a lot of reason to beliee those two come nowhere near to replacing Wilfork. Branch was handled by one lineman and moved around like a blocking sled while Siliga was often caught up in traffic and ended up on the ground. Wilfork was doubled on every play and either defeated it to clog the lane, or rode it back to end up right where the ball carrier was.

I'm sure most people have some sort of copy of the super bowl. watch Lynch's first half runs.

We don't need depth at DL, that's what we have. we need one dynamic DT who can force the action and take on double teams. Branch and Siliga are Jags. As Parcells said, [way before it is what it is], you are what you are. Wilfork is an aging all pro, we have backups and rotation players and undersized DL left.

I haven't done the leg work you have with regard to the SB running plays, so I'll take your word for it.

That said, we're not going to agree on the general assessment of Siliga. I was very impressed by him last year and thought he was playing at a higher level than Wilfork on most of his downs. Maybe I'm exaggerating and misinterpreting a little, but I doubt very much.

I suspect we'll see the team snag a big body or two in the coming months, but I'm betting it's more of the depth variety. If Bill spends a first on a run first tackle, then I'll gladly concede error.

 

[mgteich]

You seriously wrote Vellano? He wasn't an NFL player playing next to Wilfork.

They need an impact DT and any cornerback help, but, picking at 32, they are left with what's available at 32, or trade it.

If there's a DE/olb they like available and the predictable leftovers at CB and DT look like they aren't necessarily better than what's left at those positions [crap shoot] why wouldn't they pull the trigger?

People seem to think a 32 pick is going to step right in and start? I doubt that. This is basically a second round pick, they will be worked in and learn the system, no matter what position they are.

This isn't a top 10-15 pick. They won't have much choice about which position shows a somewhat special player, if any.

Between the draft and free agency, if the name Vellano is even mentioned as possibly making this team, we are in serious trouble.

We have one undersized injured DT who could possibly be a top NFL player and a collection of jags right now. We don't have a top lineman and, without Wilfork, probably don't have a decent rotation. That's just the fact.

1) You ask if no one corner or DT is worthy of 32, why wouldn't we pick DE/OLB? Obviously, they might pick one if they are forced to pick at 32. There are two other options. One is to draft an OL. I'd rather have Fisher than any DE/OLB who is likely to be available at 32. Alternatively, Belichick could do what he has done in this situation, he could trade down.

2) You misunderstand my reference to Vellano. The reference was to 2014. Belichick had only two quality DE's: Ninkovich and Jones. He had a couple of very marginal DE/OLB backups in Buchanan and Moore. And he had Vellano, a player who is of Practice Squad quality, but who might be called on (In 2014) as a 3-4 DE. That is what Belichick had available. That is the situation that was acceptable to Belichick. It was not until Jones was injured that he signed a backup.

Now, move to 2015. Belichick has everything he had to start 2014 PLUS he has Sheard. IMHO, there is no reason to believe that Belichick considers DE a draft need in 2015. Did Belichick consider DE a draft need in 2014? Who Belichick draft in the top 100 to meet that need?

I'm not saying that there is no possibility of Belichick drafting a DE/OLB early. I'm just saying that such a choice is unlikely, given that we have three serious needs where there are lots of players projected to be available at 32 and at 64.

As has been discussed on the draft board, most of us want to see CB, DT and OG addressed in the first 101 picks. Few disagree, perhaps because we have 5 such picks and we could draft these three as well as drafting at another position or two.

 

[RayClay]

This is a really bad draft for safeties.

I am not predicting the draft, just saying we might have a lot of spots that need filling.

The basis of this post is Mike Tomlinson saying it's rich in pass rushers. That's his opinion.