Defenses flopping, faking an injury to slow down offense (merged 8x)

[livinginthe past]

Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

So does that mean that if you see an opponent starting to cramp up, all you have to do is run to the LOS instead of the huddle and the other team loses a TO?

Lots of the other suggestions IMO require too much of a judgment call from the officials. E.g., how can you say "you only get to sub for the guy who went down" if there were already players heading on/off the field? What counts as a "hurry up"? How do you identify a "flop"? Etc.

The only simple, practical penalty I've seen proposed is a "you're out until the ball changes hands" rule. That works regardless of how much time is on the clock, doesn't require timing/babysitting/subjective judgments, etc.

If a player goes down, then only he can be substituted - regardless of how many substitutions were allegedly going to take place.

Its counted as a 'hurry up' if the defense can't get aligned by the time the offense are ready to snap the ball.

You don't have to identify a 'flop' - which is why you make the rules as black and white as possible - to remove judgement calls from refs.

A flaw with the theory you propose is that teams might send a 3rd tier player out onto the field with the sole intention of flopping him.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

That's exactly the solution I was going to suggest, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it implemented. Some time ago they changed the rule so that if a player got injured inside 2 minutes, the team was charged a time out no matter what. And if they didn't have a time out, 10 seconds are run off the clock (unless it is the defense with an injured player and the offense didn't want any time run off).

I think they'll move to a situation where these questionable injuries will cost a time out.

But what is a questionable injury?

 

[PlainOldEd]

Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

Willie McGinest.

 

[xmarkd400x]

Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

I think that out for one play is not a significant deterrent for flopping. However, that must be balanced by not over-penalizing real injuries.

I think extending the one-down rule to four downs would be sufficient. Then add additional penalties after the fact for obvious flops. The Giants one is the worst one I have ever seen. At least other guys have the decency to do that from the bottom of a pile.

Faking an injury has to hurt a team more than it helps the team, or teams will continue to do it.

 

[Froob]

Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

Maybe you could disallow substitutions as well as keeping the player in question out the rest of a possession (obviously you would still be allowed to substitute someone in for the downed player, but you could restrict it so you would have to exchange a DB for DB or LB for LB etc.)-- that way the defense isn't allowed to change personnel groupings

Thats the way to go imo. Not severe if there's a real injury. And defense doesn't get too much of an advantage by doing it. Don't know if I agree keeping the player out all possession. Maybe 2-3 plays?

 

[patchick]

Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

If a player goes down, then only he can be substituted - regardless of how many substitutions were allegedly going to take place.

I don't see how you could realistically make this work. Any time a player appears to be injured on defense, his team is frozen in place at whatever moment an official happens to notice he's hurt? Even if, say, they only have 8 men on the field? Or the other team is setting up for a field goal? And if he flops at the last moment when no more subs were possible, isn't it like no penalty at all?

Its counted as a 'hurry up' if the defense can't get aligned by the time the offense are ready to snap the ball.

But at the time you make this determination, that hasn't happened yet.

A flaw with the theory you propose (not allowing the player back for the full series - ed.) is that teams might send a 3rd tier player out onto the field with the sole intention of flopping him.

That's trude, if they're willing to put a scrub on the field for an actual play in preparation for a future flop, in a situation where they're already scrambling to get real subs in.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Re: No huddle offense...defensive flopping

I wonder why no one ever considers how fair it is to the defense to not allow them to change personnel. Yes, the Patriots are using the hurry-up to their advantage, but it has been used against them in the past especially by the Colts. The NFL rules are tilted so heavily in favor of offense these days. Maybe, something should be done to help defenses for once. My suggestion: Other than in the last 2 minutes of a half, on every 1st down the umpire spots the ball but stands over it for 10 seconds to allow for defensive substitutions while the play clock continues to run.

Why would you give a 10 second runoff? The point of the no huddle is to attack quickly. If the defense isn't conditioned well enough to handle the no huddle that's kind of their own fault isn't it?

 

[tunafish]

Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

Thats the way to go imo. Not severe if there's a real injury. And defense doesn't get too much of an advantage by doing it. Don't know if I agree keeping the player out all possession. Maybe 2-3 plays?

I think 4 plays, as xmarkd400x suggested, is a good number. But I don't think 2 would be sufficient

 

[Patjew]

Re: No huddle offense...defensive flopping

Make them pay on the field. Charge them a time out and a 10 yd penalty. If they have no time outs, double the penalty.

 

[aluminum seats]

Re: No huddle offense...defensive flopping

Make them pay on the field. Charge them a time out and a 10 yd penalty. If they have no time outs, double the penalty.

Agreed--no reason to get into fines & whatnot. It's a football play, but it's not a football play that should be allowed.

As to McGinest doing it, I guess there's something about one guy doing something once vs. what the Giants and other teams have started to do--just flopping all over the place like soccer players. Have some pride.

 

[xmarkd400x]

Re: No huddle offense...defensive flopping

I think a fine for unsportsmanlike conduct would be reasonable. $500k is not reasonable. The fine would have to be less than player safety fines for unnecessary hits. Player safety is more important than procedural fouls (I view flopping as more delay of game than anything), and should be fined as such.

There are a couple of 'gotchas' with this. 1) You do not want the referee making an injury judgement call during the game; 2) Since you would be reviewing post-game, you need a very strict and publicly available set of rules for what is a 'flop'; 3) You cannot over-punish something because it annoys you

 

[NYCPatsFan]

Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

Willie McGinest.

Exactly what I was thinking as I was reading the thread.

Be careful what you wish for. We push the envelope as much as other teams do.

I would rather we be masterful about it and not have such embarassing moments like the Gints.

 

[TheGodInAGreyHoodie]

Re: No huddle offense...defensive flopping

Solution if I were King: Considering how blatant the Giants fakery was…$500,000 fine. .

So flopping is 33 times worse than a horse tackle?

I would say a more appropriate response would be if flopping is blatant than award a flag of 5 yards -- automatic first down, no fine.

 

[SEA_Pat]

Re: No huddle offense...defensive flopping

I think fining or other "judgement calls" are counter-productive, the more emphasis you place on non-players affecting the game, the worse things get.

The solution is simple and obvious. Any player going down is out for the next x number of plays or the entire series. This is logical as if a guy is injured, he should be given the time required to be assessed and provided the relief he obviously required. And it removes any arbitrariness from the rulings. No ref need assess whether it was a real injury or not.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Re: No huddle offense...defensive flopping

I think a fine for unsportsmanlike conduct would be reasonable. $500k is not reasonable. The fine would have to be less than player safety fines for unnecessary hits. Player safety is more important than procedural fouls (I view flopping as more delay of game than anything), and should be fined as such.

There are a couple of 'gotchas' with this. 1) You do not want the referee making an injury judgement call during the game; 2) Since you would be reviewing post-game, you need a very strict and publicly available set of rules for what is a 'flop'; 3) You cannot over-punish something because it annoys you

Those fines I stated above would be against the COACH and TEAM, not the players. I'd fine them $5K-$10K each.

 

[condon84]

Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

Two solutions to work n concert.

1. The player being substituted cannot re-enter the game for 10 minutes or the remainder of the quarter - whichever is longer.

2. When the substitution takes place only the player who is injured can be replaced with a like for like player ie DB for DB.

I am not in favor of fines - these do not offer any type of restitution to the team being wronged by the flopping - and the sums involved would likely to be paltry compared to the value of winning a game (and maybe a playoff game at that)

I like the concept of the first one.

I would do the rules like this regarding injured players:

If an injured player can't make it off the field and causes a timeout, that injured player can't play the rest of the drive and also the following two offensive drives. Two offensive drives might span more than 10 minutes or over a quarter of a football game. It basically rewards the offense to not have to deal with x player for as long as they have their current drive PLUS two more drives which gives them total control for how long that defensive player gets punished.

This would put a stop to all this nonsense.

 

[PatsWSB47]

Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

Exactly what I was thinking as I was reading the thread.

Be careful what you wish for. We push the envelope as much as other teams do.

I would rather we be masterful about it and not have such embarassing moments like the Gints.

Hey give the Giants a break. Do you know how many valuable flopping practice opportunities were lost because of the lock-out? Give em a couple more games and they'll be in mid-season form

 

[Modest]

Re: No huddle offense...defensive flopping

Didn't Mcguiness pull this stunt before the goal line stand against the Colts in 2004? I'm asking because a Colts fan made that accusation. A link to the full play would be nice.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Re: No huddle offense...defensive flopping

Didn't Mcguiness pull this stunt before the goal line stand against the Colts in 2004? I'm asking because a Colts fan made that accusation. A link to the full play would be nice.

Oh, McGinest most certainly did. And a lot more blatant than anything the Chargers did yesterday.

McGinest went down and simultaneously Law started reaching for his leg. When Law saw that McG was down, Law miraculously "recovered" from his "injury" and straightened up. And then McG made the stuff, got to his feet, and ran full speed halfway down the field in celebration.

Absolutely a phony flop.

 

[ivanvamp]

Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

I like the concept of the first one.

I would do the rules like this regarding injured players:

If an injured player can't make it off the field and causes a timeout, that injured player can't play the rest of the drive and also the following two offensive drives. Two offensive drives might span more than 10 minutes or over a quarter of a football game. It basically rewards the offense to not have to deal with x player for as long as they have their current drive PLUS two more drives which gives them total control for how long that defensive player gets punished.

This would put a stop to all this nonsense.

Ten minutes of *real* time, or ten minutes of *game* time? If it's the latter, that's insane. Ten minutes of game time usually takes at least twice that long, sometimes three times that long, in real time. It happens all the time that a guy is legitimately dinged up, twists an ankle, whatever, needs to come off, but they tape him up and he's ready to go within a few plays. And it's all legit.

Penalizing a legitimately, but not seriously, injured player 10 minutes of game time is crazy upon crazy.

I do, however, appreciate the spirit of this thread. In soccer, you can get a yellow card for flopping (called "diving" in soccer). It's not a penalty that impacts the game immediately, but it could lead to a one-game suspension. They could implement a similar system in the NFL. Maybe there's nothing you can do right away, but have officials review all these situations afterwards, and "award" yellow cards (I'm sure it would be something different in the NFL, which is fine) if they determine a player is flopping. After that, the next time you do it you get a one-game suspension.

Now there are a lot of guys that play defense, and if you're smart, you can game-plan so that different guys do the flopping so nobody accrues two "yellow cards". But that would be hard to do in the heat of battle.