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Defenses flopping, faking an injury to slow down offense (merged 8x)

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by borg, Sep 20, 2011.

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  1. borg

    borg Rookie

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    No huddle offense...defensive flopping

    Those who watched MNF saw the blatant flopping by two Giant defenders during a no huddle series by St Louis. As the Rams O marched down the field against a disorganized, gassed D, two Giants went to the ground after looking over to the sidelines. One "injured" player popped right back up after realizing his teammate beat him to the turf.
    Yes, Willie McGinnest secured a SB birth doing the same thing.....bogus then, bogus now. San Diego flopped on Sunday vs the Patriots. The NFL is starting to resemble soccer.

    Solution if I were King: Considering how blatant the Giants fakery was…$500,000 fine. This fine will quickly end any future crap. Repeat offenders will lose draft picks as well. Illegal taping was dealt with severely….I don’t see why onfield cheating would be considered a lesser offense.
    In the future, if an injury (fake or real) occurs during a no huddle situation, the team will only be allowed to substitute for the injured player and that player must remain on the sidelines for the duration of the series.
  2. TX_Patriot

    TX_Patriot Rookie

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    OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

    This has been discussed a bit over the last few years, and a lot of fans feel that the Pats new aggressive hurry-up style is going to be affected by this "phenomenon" all year. PFT has also posted an article on the egregious flops in Giants/Rams game last night.

    Ref was powerless on Giants’ fake injuries, but NFL is not | ProFootballTalk

    My question is, is there a way to curb flopping on D?

    Personally, I think that the "injured" player should be forced to sit out the remainder of the possession rather than just a single play. This would give the team's medical staff the proper amount of time to "Evaluate" the player's condition. Also, if the league feels that the player did, in fact, fake the injury, then team should be fined (not the player) and heavily. Put the pressure on the owners and coaches to take this crap out of football.
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2011
  3. TX_Patriot

    TX_Patriot Rookie

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    Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

    Ugh, merge please. Didn't see the other post when I wrote this.
  4. sportsreport360

    sportsreport360 Rookie

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    Re: No huddle offense...defensive flopping

    Well, it is tough because so many of the teams wants to switch defensive personnel and a no huddle offense does not allow this to happen. I think defensive teams will continue to flop, it is just a part of the game.
  5. The-Hooded-One

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    Re: No huddle offense...defensive flopping

    McGinnest did it in a regular season game so I'm not sure how that secured a Super Bowl birth.
  6. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

    IMO if you are injured you have to stay out for something like three plays instead of one.. but not sure that would solve anything as a reserve player could flop as well as a starter..
  7. patsfaninpittsburgh

    patsfaninpittsburgh Banned

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    Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

    What ever happened to delay of game?
  8. TX_Patriot

    TX_Patriot Rookie

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    Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

    The problem with assessing a penalty is then the onus is on the Refs to determine if a guy is really hurt or not. I'm sure the league doesn't want that to fall into the Refs hands.
  9. Armchair Quarterback

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    Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

    The rest of the possession is the answer. They need to fix this, the game has enough stupid distractions without turning it into soccer.

    Against Miami, Marshall was limping off the field and you can see Sunglasses at Night Fist Pump and another coach motioning him to get down and he went down like he was shot. That wasn't as bad as what the Giants did with two flopping at the same time.
  10. ctpatsfan77

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    Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

    Simple: if the player comes back in during that possession, assess an automatic DOG penalty.
  11. Kenneth Sims

    Kenneth Sims Rookie

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    Re: No huddle offense...defensive flopping

    I wonder why no one ever considers how fair it is to the defense to not allow them to change personnel. Yes, the Patriots are using the hurry-up to their advantage, but it has been used against them in the past especially by the Colts. The NFL rules are tilted so heavily in favor of offense these days. Maybe, something should be done to help defenses for once. My suggestion: Other than in the last 2 minutes of a half, on every 1st down the umpire spots the ball but stands over it for 10 seconds to allow for defensive substitutions while the play clock continues to run.
  12. tunafish

    tunafish Rookie

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    Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

    Maybe you could disallow substitutions as well as keeping the player in question out the rest of a possession (obviously you would still be allowed to substitute someone in for the downed player, but you could restrict it so you would have to exchange a DB for DB or LB for LB etc.)-- that way the defense isn't allowed to change personnel groupings
  13. Bobs My Uncle

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    Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

    Make a rule that teams allotted TO's include injury situations as well.
  14. Sivy

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    Re: No huddle offense...defensive flopping

    They should be fined and ejected...The jets did this in the playoff game agains the pats. It was so fake it wasnt even funny. Its the only way to slow down the no huddle without taking a T.O.
  15. livinginthe past

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    Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

    Two solutions to work n concert.

    1. The player being substituted cannot re-enter the game for 10 minutes or the remainder of the quarter - whichever is longer.

    2. When the substitution takes place only the player who is injured can be replaced with a like for like player ie DB for DB.

    I am not in favor of fines - these do not offer any type of restitution to the team being wronged by the flopping - and the sums involved would likely to be paltry compared to the value of winning a game (and maybe a playoff game at that)
  16. Big-T

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    Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

    How about if a player goes down injured when the opposition is running the no huddle, it costs a team time out whether it's in the last 2 minutes or not.
  17. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

    So does that mean that if you see an opponent starting to cramp up, all you have to do is run to the LOS instead of the huddle and the other team loses a TO?

    Lots of the other suggestions IMO require too much of a judgment call from the officials. E.g., how can you say "you only get to sub for the guy who went down" if there were already players heading on/off the field? What counts as a "hurry up"? How do you identify a "flop"? Etc.

    The only simple, practical penalty I've seen proposed is a "you're out until the ball changes hands" rule. That works regardless of how much time is on the clock, doesn't require timing/babysitting/subjective judgments, etc.
  18. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

    Well, interestingly enough, here's what the 2010 rulebook has to say on this issue:

    I would argue that a fair penalty would be, say, $250,000 against Coughlin, $500,000 against the team, and forfeiture of a first- or second- and third-round draft picks. . . .
  19. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

    That's exactly the solution I was going to suggest, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it implemented. Some time ago they changed the rule so that if a player got injured inside 2 minutes, the team was charged a time out no matter what. And if they didn't have a time out, 10 seconds are run off the clock (unless it is the defense with an injured player and the offense didn't want any time run off).

    I think they'll move to a situation where these questionable injuries will cost a time out.
  20. Wolfpack

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    Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

    Well I'll say this... the way 2 guys completely and totally flopped on the same play at the same time in a virtually identical fashion sure shows to me that it was something that was coached into them, and not just one of them acting on his own.
  21. livinginthe past

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    Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

    If a player goes down, then only he can be substituted - regardless of how many substitutions were allegedly going to take place.

    Its counted as a 'hurry up' if the defense can't get aligned by the time the offense are ready to snap the ball.

    You don't have to identify a 'flop' - which is why you make the rules as black and white as possible - to remove judgement calls from refs.

    A flaw with the theory you propose is that teams might send a 3rd tier player out onto the field with the sole intention of flopping him.
  22. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

    But what is a questionable injury?
  23. PlainOldEd

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    Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

    Willie McGinest.
  24. xmarkd400x

    xmarkd400x Rookie

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    Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

    I think that out for one play is not a significant deterrent for flopping. However, that must be balanced by not over-penalizing real injuries.

    I think extending the one-down rule to four downs would be sufficient. Then add additional penalties after the fact for obvious flops. The Giants one is the worst one I have ever seen. At least other guys have the decency to do that from the bottom of a pile.

    Faking an injury has to hurt a team more than it helps the team, or teams will continue to do it.
  25. Froob

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    Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

    Thats the way to go imo. Not severe if there's a real injury. And defense doesn't get too much of an advantage by doing it. Don't know if I agree keeping the player out all possession. Maybe 2-3 plays?
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2011
  26. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

    I don't see how you could realistically make this work. Any time a player appears to be injured on defense, his team is frozen in place at whatever moment an official happens to notice he's hurt? Even if, say, they only have 8 men on the field? Or the other team is setting up for a field goal? And if he flops at the last moment when no more subs were possible, isn't it like no penalty at all?

    But at the time you make this determination, that hasn't happened yet.

    That's trude, if they're willing to put a scrub on the field for an actual play in preparation for a future flop, in a situation where they're already scrambling to get real subs in.
  27. VJCPatriot

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    Re: No huddle offense...defensive flopping

    Why would you give a 10 second runoff? The point of the no huddle is to attack quickly. If the defense isn't conditioned well enough to handle the no huddle that's kind of their own fault isn't it?
  28. tunafish

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    Re: OT:Flopping in Football, is there a fix?

    I think 4 plays, as xmarkd400x suggested, is a good number. But I don't think 2 would be sufficient
  29. Patjew

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    Re: No huddle offense...defensive flopping

    Make them pay on the field. Charge them a time out and a 10 yd penalty. If they have no time outs, double the penalty.
  30. aluminum seats

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    Re: No huddle offense...defensive flopping

    Agreed--no reason to get into fines & whatnot. It's a football play, but it's not a football play that should be allowed.

    As to McGinest doing it, I guess there's something about one guy doing something once vs. what the Giants and other teams have started to do--just flopping all over the place like soccer players. Have some pride.
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