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Nice to have another voice of sanity to counter the Vine and cheese crowd! Best wishes with the new company, remember your buddies here when you buy out Bob Kraft! :cool:

Thats a long way from buying Kraft Macaroni and Cheese, but its a fun fight.
 
Double teams are only based on where the play is going. Arguably the guy drawing the double team isnt the better player because they are choosing to run at him. True double teams are rare in the NFL anyway. You have 5 OL a TE and a RB to block 7 DL/LBs. If you double one guy someone else is unblocked and you wont gain any yards. Who do you see double teaming Warren? Can be the G because the ILB wouldnt get blocked. Cant be the TE because the OLB wouldnt get blocked. Rather than doubleteaming, mostly OL will combo block hitting one defender on the way to their true assignment.

No way Setymour is anything but the best DL on this team, and probably in the league.
I love the way Warren is playing, but Seymour is a cut above.


Warren has had a great couple of years, but when I think of all that Seymour has done for us going back to 2001, it pains me that people are so quick to throw him under the bus lately. I just don't buy any of the grumblings about him.

No player is at his best all the time in a brutal sport where your body doesn't always get enough rest, but Seymour is out there playing injuried. He's not sitting on his pile of cash. He's in the game.
 
i dotn think this is the best BB defense.

2003: we were 4th overall..both in run and pass actually i think

if u look at stats

and before with Law here our pass D was better

our pass D isnt as good..i mean it could be but we arent healthy but we could say the same about last year if we were healthy in secondary with harrison-gay-scott
 
Re: your comments about #5 vs run and #14 against the pass-- The Pats really concentrate on stuffing the run at the beginning of the game, and as you said, adjust to the passing game as it goes.Solid plan except against teams like Indy.On their website, Polian contends that running stats are meaningless, the only stats that matter are yds per pass play and the turnover margin. (Addai may change his mind.)

Also, don't forget, the 2003 defense did without Seymour through the playoffs and most of the SB.
 
Despite the stats, I believe the 2003 D was superior, picking up steam as the season wore on and proving its mettle against top opponents (except Carolina, under extenuating circumstances: STEROIDS). I still believe to this day that the 2003 Tennessee Titans were the best team the Pats have faced in the playoffs in their entire SB run. That Patriot team had all-pro caliber playmakers in their prime at every level of the D: Harrison, Law, McGinest, Bruschi, Vrabel, Seymour, Washington even Hamilton was an outstanding run defender. The current D lacks IMO that playmaking ability, especially at LBer and in the current injury riddled secondary. The best measure of D IMO is defensive passer rating, 3rd down %, Yards per rush allowed and total turnovers created. The 2003 team had a better Defensive passer rating, a better 3rd down %, and more turnovers created. Once Ted Washington returned from his injury the yards per rush likely became superior as well. The true test is still to come, of course.[/QUOTE

What a brilliant analysis......The Titans were the toughest and best opponent we faced that year.Better than the Colts and Carolina.
They were TOUGH,Mcnair was a monster against us.They played a ball control game,and just ran out of time in wicked cold conditions.

We were playing a mirror-image of our selves and were fortunate to have that game at home.

Kudos........great analysis
 
Despite the stats, I believe the 2003 D was superior, picking up steam as the season wore on and proving its mettle against top opponents (except Carolina, under extenuating circumstances: STEROIDS). I still believe to this day that the 2003 Tennessee Titans were the best team the Pats have faced in the playoffs in their entire SB run. That Patriot team had all-pro caliber playmakers in their prime at every level of the D: Harrison, Law, McGinest, Bruschi, Vrabel, Seymour, Washington even Hamilton was an outstanding run defender. The current D lacks IMO that playmaking ability, especially at LBer and in the current injury riddled secondary. The best measure of D IMO is defensive passer rating, 3rd down %, Yards per rush allowed and total turnovers created. The 2003 team had a better Defensive passer rating, a better 3rd down %, and more turnovers created. Once Ted Washington returned from his injury the yards per rush likely became superior as well. The true test is still to come, of course.
All good points, Pony, but I take some issue with that. Vrabel is older but smarter and Colvin is a good edge rusher as well as a good run defender. The DL is superior by far. Wilfork is far more athletic than Washington, can play all the snaps and can chase down a play more than 3 yards away. Warren is truly a force. Samuel is no Ty Law, but he's not bad and much better these days. And with Wilson (soon) and Hobbs, the 2006 D backfield is a lot faster and with Scott (soon), Hawkins, Sanders, and Harrison (soon), it's a lot deeper.

The 2003 team did not dominate in the reg season, it peaked in the post season, as opposed to the 2004 team which was dominant throughout.

Let's see what happens this year. It's now officially after Thanksgiving.

No argument, though, that the Titans were a tremendous team and the game of the year was that incredibly frigid game with McNair a hero of a QB.
 
This year may be the best defense of the BB era.
No matter who is out, the D plays well, because it is a TEAM defense.

I think we'll see how well this holds up now that we're getting injuries at key LB spots. Seau's loss, in my eyes, could hurt more than we would have thought upon his signing.

I think what has made it better include the following:
Warren and Wilforks continued improvement.

It's been great to see Wilfork continue his improvement from the second half of last season. I was quite worried about him after the first 6 or so weeks of 2005. He's turning the corner quite well.

Warren is possibly the best player on the defense. That's saying alot when you consider who else he's out there with. Warren is really making all of us that doubted his drafting look foolish (I was one of those).

The corners being more comfortable in the system (see notes below re pass D)

What corners?? haha. All joking aside, I think Asante has really elevated his play for the most part (though he still gives up too many catches, IMO). Hobbs has done a good job for the most part, though he's been the victim of alot of catches lately himself. I give him a pass on the PI calls because I thought they were mainly bogus. That holding call was an absolute joke.

Colvin is playing better this season than any OLb has in one season since BB arrived.

You really think he's outplayed the McG/Vrabes combo from 2003/2004? I can't say that I agree, but I think he's played very well.

While our depth may not be name players, guy like Wright, TBC, Sanders, Hawkins, simply do their job. They dont do anything great, but dont have to. The only D problems we have ever had under BB (outside of 2000 when no one understood what they were doing) was when players coming off the bench were liabilities. When we bring in a sub, and he is a 'neutral' we are always fine.

I agree with most of this, except that the only time we've had D problems was when bench players were liabilities. Steve Martin was a starter in 2002. And he was horrid. The same can be said of Starkes in 2005 as a starter. Add Monty Beisel to that list when he was tried as a starter in 2005. 2005 Chad Brown as well (though Beisel and Brown technically only started because both Bruschi and Johnson were gone at season's start, but they were still starters). The instances are limited, but they're there. The backups this year have done an admirable job (except for Sanders in the Jets game, that was poo).

D FACTS:

-We are 6th in total defense. Our scheme says thats about as good as we could ever be, since we are above all ocnservative.
-We are #3 vs the run. 83 yards a game and 3.4 a carry. Those are close to if not the best ever by a BB D.
-We have given up more than 17 points ONE time.
-We have allowed 13 defensive TDs in 11 games. That is incredible.
-Wehave only allowed ONE run all year of 20+ yards.
-Suddenly, after problems forcing turovers last year we are 8th in Ints. and 6th in total takeaways.

After the first few games where our D looked early-2005ish (turnover and yard-wise, not point-wise) they have played very well and looked far more like the late-2005 D. I'm glad they've been able to sustain their success since those early struggles.

Notes about pass D.

Invariably, we hear the commentary about bad QBs 'doing well' against us. But this has been happening for years, and it always happens the same way. EARLY in the game, these weaker QBs complete a lot of passes against us. (Harrington comes specifically to mind) Then as the game wears on all of a sudden they cannot complete them, and many times begin throwing Ints.
THIS IS A CORE BB PHILOSOPHY, and one of the reasons young QBs always struggle vs his D. Early in the game they see coverages they can understand, and since they are NFL caliber arms they complete some passes. As the game wears on what they think they see isnt what we are playing. The confidence they develop early in the game (I can see it happening during some games, the QB thinking this isnt so hard, that D isnt so complicated) then the schemes change and they look pathetic.

Interesting theory and I can actually see it. Though I'm sure if you asked BB if they allow completions early to play with the QBs psyche he'd respond that they never want to allow completions.

I am CERTAIN that in the first quarter yesterday there we tons of Pat fans whining about the coverage, and how Grossman was completing all those crossing patterns, and the coverage seemed 'soft'. As the game wore on what he was doing early was no longer working because the schemes changed (and were disguised) but he kept trying to do the same thing.

I really felt like the Pats defense against the Bears was trying to pressure Grossman and it eventually got into his head. The officials also helped get into his head by giving so many tickytacky PI/D holding calls in those 0-coverage man-to-man situations.

I am certain that he wouldn't have thrown up that final deep bomb if he wasn't confident that a PI call was likely. Banta-Cain helped force the issue, but the Refs are the ones that instilled that false confidence.

Its not as if BB lets them succeed early. But, there are many ways to play defense. BB prefers to play a concept early in the game that says what you see is what you get, come beat it, and his defenders must make good plays in a scheme without disguise. As the game wears on he disguises and changes the schemes, and now the opposing QB is lulled into confusion, and the scheme sets up the players.

Good further analysis on your earlier theory. This part I fully agree with, and is more or less what I was describing in the prior reply.

Once again, good stuff Andy, it's good to see you back. Football talk! There are alot of fluff posters around these days, so it's good to have some substance back.

Where did you go for all that time??
 
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Double teams are only based on where the play is going. Arguably the guy drawing the double team isnt the better player because they are choosing to run at him.

Well that kind of invalidates the whole "Seymour doesn't put up great numbers because he's always drawing the double team" argument, doesn't it?
 
Seau made some plays, but I dont think he was key to the run D. He is kind of a 'gambler' in run defense. Vrable will be as good inside vs the run, the question is how TBC holds up when he is in their in the base.
My only question is then why did the Bears running game improve when Seau was out?? I agree with your overall points on the D..welcome back and good luck with the start yp....
 
Well that kind of invalidates the whole "Seymour doesn't put up great numbers because he's always drawing the double team" argument, doesn't it?

I never thought that was the argument. The argument is he doesnt put up big #s because he plays in a 2 gap system.

You tell me, who puts up bigger #s, the guy whose job is to iniate contact with the OL, and then stay there to play the gap on either side, only vacating when a cutback isnt an option, and not being able to use a pass rush move that doesnt involve engaging the blocker first, OR a guy who can pretty much go wherever he wants and find the ball?

We know what system produces better team D, but indivudally there is no way you can put up near the numbers in this system as you could in a one gap.

Dwight Freeney playing Dodge the blocker will get more sacks because he is running away from the blocks, or making moves that take him out of position but for every sack he gets there are 5 or more plays run at him where he isnt even a factor.
 
Dwight Freeney playing Dodge the blocker will get more sacks because he is running away from the blocks, or making moves that take him out of position but for every sack he gets there are 5 or more plays run at him where he isnt even a factor.

I would just like to point out that Freeney only has 2.5 sacks and 14 total tackles this year vs Seymour's 4 and 31. Not that I think that it in any way invalidates AJ's very good point, but that I just love how Mr. Spinning Top is such a non-factor this year.

R
 
Your right, and Ty Warren might be the most underated player on the Pats...
He isnt underrated. I have heard analysts hyping him. He isnt overrated and he isnt underrated.

No this defense is good but nothing will ever come close to the 2003 defense. Amazing front seven, amazing secondary, we were unbelievable that year.
 
I guess we should add our red zone stats. As of a week ago, we were #1 in red zone opportunities allowed, and near the top in defensive red zone efficiency. And of course, we are #2 in the league in points allowed.

And we do this with no backup ILB's, Troy Brown at nickel, and linebackers in coverage as dime backs.

We will be tested later in the year when we face San diego or KC. However, the team certainly seems one of the best we've had in many years; certainly the best run defense.



This year may be the best defense of the BB era.
No matter who is out, the D plays well, because it is a TEAM defense.
I think what has made it better include the following:
Warren and Wilforks continued improvement.
The corners being more comfortable in the system (see notes below re pass D)
Colvin is playing better this season than any OLb has in one season since BB arrived.
While our depth may not be name players, guy like Wright, TBC, Sanders, Hawkins, simply do their job. They dont do anything great, but dont have to. The only D problems we have ever had under BB (outside of 2000 when no one understood what they were doing) was when players coming off the bench were liabilities. When we bring in a sub, and he is a 'neutral' we are always fine.

D FACTS:

-We are 6th in total defense. Our scheme says thats about as good as we could ever be, since we are above all ocnservative.
-We are #3 vs the run. 83 yards a game and 3.4 a carry. Those are close to if not the best ever by a BB D.
-We have given up more than 17 points ONE time.
-We have allowed 13 defensive TDs in 11 games. That is incredible.
-Wehave only allowed ONE run all year of 20+ yards.
-Suddenly, after problems forcing turovers last year we are 8th in Ints. and 6th in total takeaways.

Notes about pass D.

Invariably, we hear the commentary about bad QBs 'doing well' against us. But this has been happening for years, and it always happens the same way. EARLY in the game, these weaker QBs complete a lot of passes against us. (Harrington comes specifically to mind) Then as the game wears on all of a sudden they cannot complete them, and many times begin throwing Ints.
THIS IS A CORE BB PHILOSOPHY, and one of the reasons young QBs always struggle vs his D. Early in the game they see coverages they can understand, and since they are NFL caliber arms they complete some passes. As the game wears on what they think they see isnt what we are playing. The confidence they develop early in the game (I can see it happening during some games, the QB thinking this isnt so hard, that D isnt so complicated) then the schemes change and they look pathetic.
I am CERTAIN that in the first quarter yesterday there we tons of Pat fans whining about the coverage, and how Grossman was completing all those crossing patterns, and the coverage seemed 'soft'. As the game wore on what he was doing early was no longer working because the schemes changed (and were disguised) but he kept trying to do the same thing.

Its not as if BB lets them succeed early. But, there are many ways to play defense. BB prefers to play a concept early in the game that says what you see is what you get, come beat it, and his defenders must make good plays in a scheme without disguise. As the game wears on he disguises and changes the schemes, and now the opposing QB is lulled into confusion, and the scheme sets up the players.
 
My only question is then why did the Bears running game improve when Seau was out?? I agree with your overall points on the D..welcome back and good luck with the start yp....

Try these numbers for a change of perspective:

Chicago
1st half rushing: 61 yds, passing: 12 of 23 for 157 yds

2nd half rushing: 92 yds, passing 3 of 11 for 19 yds

Defensive shifts during a game are so intriguing...:)
 
Try these numbers for a change of perspective:

Chicago
1st half rushing: 61 yds, passing: 12 of 23 for 157 yds

2nd half rushing: 92 yds, passing 3 of 11 for 19 yds

Defensive shifts during a game are so intriguing...:)
I'm not sure that changes my perspective..as I was talking about the running D not the the total picture....I wonder what the yardage avgs were before and after Seau was hurt..I would also be guessing that almost half of the 61 was post injury. first half..when Benson came in and was and also that when Bruschi went out..Jones 17 came on the next play.
 
I'm not sure that changes my perspective..as I was talking about the running D not the the total picture....I wonder what the yardage avgs were before and after Seau was hurt..I would also be guessing that almost half of the 61 was post injury. first half..when Benson came in and was and also that when Bruschi went out..Jones 17 came on the next play.
C'mon Stan, everybody would like to look at the final score and have one thing to point at and say that was why they won. Bottom line with the defense, Seau or no, they did their job and kept Chicago out of the end zone, even with the back and side judges praying to St. Polian.

We can speculate about the run game, the thing is, the Pats took away the big play which is Chicago's primary scoring weapon. They are not a grind it out, cloud of dust offense and the run game getting some extra yardage did little to help them score. Vrable and Bruschi have time before the playoffs to work together and improve their partnership, they already have a solid base to build on. Come the playoffs and BB will be bringing out the knuckle balls and other ungodly breaking stuff for each offense they face, we'll have forgotten Seau by then. :rocker:
 
C'mon Stan, everybody would like to look at the final score and have one thing to point at and say that was why they won. Bottom line with the defense, Seau or no, they did their job and kept Chicago out of the end zone, even with the back and side judges praying to St. Polian.

We can speculate about the run game, the thing is, the Pats took away the big play which is Chicago's primary scoring weapon. They are not a grind it out, cloud of dust offense and the run game getting some extra yardage did little to help them score. Vrable and Bruschi have time before the playoffs to work together and improve their partnership, they already have a solid base to build on. Come the playoffs and BB will be bringing out the knuckle balls and other ungodly breaking stuff for each offense they face, we'll have forgotten Seau by then. :rocker:

I wish I had your optimism, but an 0-6 record over the last two years to Indy/SD/Denver, including playoffs, and a Points Alowed average of 30 PPG in those games, tells me that there is trouble brewing in Patriot Nation. :(
 
C'mon Stan, everybody would like to look at the final score and have one thing to point at and say that was why they won. Bottom line with the defense, Seau or no, they did their job and kept Chicago out of the end zone, even with the back and side judges praying to St. Polian.

We can speculate about the run game, the thing is, the Pats took away the big play which is Chicago's primary scoring weapon. They are not a grind it out, cloud of dust offense and the run game getting some extra yardage did little to help them score. Vrable and Bruschi have time before the playoffs to work together and improve their partnership, they already have a solid base to build on. Come the playoffs and BB will be bringing out the knuckle balls and other ungodly breaking stuff for each offense they face, we'll have forgotten Seau by then. :rocker:
Oh no...the D played great there is no undenying that..Did I even critizize the D at all?? No they played super..just incredible..I think more my point is that they will miss Seau...especially with the run. I think the D played really great..but concern has to be axout the running game..and stopping it. I'm not sure they wish to do that..have Vrabel and Bruschi in there..inside. I HOPE they can get it together for the playoffs...more so keep itr together..for the D has been super. Seau was a missing piece in the LB situation..and his injury I think is troubling..although I also think the team WILL find a solution.
I was not critical of the D as a whole..more a obersvation of the run D..and how it changed after he was hurt.
 
Situation is different

I wish I had your optimism, but an 0-6 record over the last two years to Indy/SD/Denver, including playoffs, and a Points Alowed average of 30 PPG in those games, tells me that there is trouble brewing in Patriot Nation. :(

I am not worried. Last years team and this years early team had glaring problems that a good Coach with a good team could exploit with his eyes blindfolded and his hands tied behind his back.

Last years team couldn't run. The O-line was beat up and playing two rookies, and the only RB was really a smallish third down back; not someone to base a running game on. Sure enough the Broncs ignored the run threat and beat up and picked the Pats passing game.

Early this season, we had an raw and unreliable passing game, with the WRs introducing themselves to the QB on day one and palying the next. Teams loaded up to stop the rush, and dared the Pats to beat them with the pass; we couldn't at that time. Twelve to Sixteen games later, its different.

Neither situation any longer applies.

The Defense is up there; if not better than any of our SB clubs, its close. The O-line is better than ever, the RBs are deeper than I ever remember, even the 3000 rushing yard season, that I witnessed. The passing game may not be spectacular but its very deep. There are five WR who catch, two
TEs and three RBs who don't embarass themselves in the passing game. Even CJ has more catches than Dwight, Davis and BJ did from last years pass happy club. One other minor fellow too. A six year veteran QB just entering the prime years for the QB position. A fellow named Brady.
 
Despite the stats, I believe the 2003 D was superior, picking up steam as the season wore on and proving its mettle against top opponents (except Carolina, under extenuating circumstances: STEROIDS). I still believe to this day that the 2003 Tennessee Titans were the best team the Pats have faced in the playoffs in their entire SB run. That Patriot team had all-pro caliber playmakers in their prime at every level of the D: Harrison, Law, McGinest, Bruschi, Vrabel, Seymour, Washington even Hamilton was an outstanding run defender. The current D lacks IMO that playmaking ability, especially at LBer and in the current injury riddled secondary. The best measure of D IMO is defensive passer rating, 3rd down %, Yards per rush allowed and total turnovers created. The 2003 team had a better Defensive passer rating, a better 3rd down %, and more turnovers created. Once Ted Washington returned from his injury the yards per rush likely became superior as well. The true test is still to come, of course.


Agreed. This D is not as good as the 2003 D. It's really not even that close. Stats shmats.
 
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