Defense After 7 Games Is Really Good

[supafly]

If you take away the bogus field goal and the pick six they only gave up a net total of 13 pts(subtract 7 for the pick six). That's pretty damn good.

I think your math is a little off, but I agree to a point with your statement.

The final score was 30-27, so the defense still gave up 23 pts if you take away the pick six...not "13."

And that was with them being on the field all day because the offense was going 3 and out the whole second half.

Absolutely. I agree that the offense put a lot more pressure on the defense yesterday with their inability.

Unfortunately with this offense, we'll going to be in a lot of close games.

I tend to think you're right, unless the offense suddenly takes off.

 

[supafly]

I just think it was not all bad. The offense put our defense on the field all day and the run defense still held up. I was impressed by our DTs. Third and 20 is inexcusable, however, and the pass defense reminded us of the stench from last year.

I absolutely agree with you that they held up well with the positions that our offense continued to put them in.

I too am impressed with the play of the DT's. It's the play of the LB's in coverage that I am probably most concerned with to be honest.

Overall, they certainly did not play badly. I'm just personally not quite as impressed as some others seem to be due to certain aspects. One of the biggest would be the lack of skill position players in the Jets offense, along with the rookie QB.

 

[Froob]

I think your math is a little off, but I agree to a point with your statement.

The final score was 30-27, so the defense still gave up 23 pts if you take away the pick six...not "13."



Absolutely. I agree that the offense put a lot more pressure on the defense yesterday with their inability.



I tend to think you're right, unless the offense suddenly takes off.

I'm saying you take away the pick six by the offense and you take away 7 more because of Logan Ryan's interception. So that's a net total of 16 with the field goal.

 

[supafly]

I'm saying you take away the pick six by the offense and you take away 7 more because of Logan Ryan's interception. So that's a net total of 16 with the field goal.

I'm not trying to be ignorant, but I don't understand what Logan Ryan's INT has to do with our defensive points allowed?

I understand the pick six given up by the offense of course. That means that our defense only gave up 23 instead of 30.

Either way, it hardly matters. I agree with a lot of what you say, and I certainly don't think the defense played poorly; I just don't think they did quite as well as some others feel either.

 

[mgteich]

I think that you are indeed being a bit harsh. We give the offense a season to get acclimated to their new players. The defense should at least be complimented when guys like Chris Jones can pick up the defense and be major contributors so quickly.

Vellano, Jones, Collins and Forston should all get better as they get more playing time, ditto for Ryan and Harmon. For this week, they did very well, given who was missing.

I understand that Wilfork and Mayo are gone for the year. However, in addition to the replacements and rookies improving over time, we should be getting Kelly and Talib back soon, and maybe even Armstead.

Perhaps, we should be emphasizing that the team did great considering that they were missing Talib and Kelly, and considering the limited time that Chris Jones has been on the team.

One thing I don't want to hear anymore, is that they played "well, considering the losses of Wilfork and Mayo." Those replacements are what we'll have for the rest of the year, so that attempt at spreading good vibes isn't going to hold an ounce of water anymore.

In the world of heartfelt Hallmark cards etc--yes, I do think they played well despite those losses, but it just doesn't matter anymore. They aren't coming back, and the depth behind them is supposed to be sufficient. This is the NFL.

Again, maybe I am being too harsh? I just don't see how we can look at things realistically by continuing to bring up those losses and comparing the fact that "we didn't do as badly as some other teams would do" in that situation. The fact remains that those losses are likely to hurt, and were definitely noticeable at times (in my opinion).

 

[supafly]

I think that you are indeed being a bit harsh. We give the offense a season to get acclimated to their new players. The defense should at least be complimented when guys like Chris Jones can pick up the defense and be major contributors so quickly.

Vellano, Jones, Collins and Forston should all get better as they get more playing time, ditto for Ryan and Harmon. For this week, they did very well, given who was missing.

I understand that Wilfork and Mayo are gone for the year. However, in addition to the replacements and rookies improving over time, we should be getting Kelly and Talib back soon, and maybe even Armstead.

Perhaps, we should be emphasizing that the team did great considering that they were missing Talib and Kelly, and considering the limited time that Chris Jones has been on the team.

The only reason I don't have as many good things to say about the defense yesterday is due to the fact that Geno Smith and arguably the most limited offense in the entire league shouldn't be putting up 23 points and 400+ total yards on what anyone would consider a "good defense."

1st half:

Our defense allowed them to convert SIX straight third down attempts in the first half, with 2 very long drives (TOP, drive plays).

2nd half:

Our defense allowed them to successfully score on 3 of 6 drives with either TD's or FG's, and this was when they actually buckled down a bit.

As a whole the Jets scored on 6/13 drives including OT. To me that isn't really pointing to a "good" defensive performance. It points more towards mediocre. It is nothing more than a difference of opinions. I definitely agree with you that there are some positives that can be taken from the defensive performance yesterday also, so it isn't like I am trying to make it one-sided.

It's hard for me to look at a 46 to 23 minute TOP which allowed 177 rushing yds and made guys like Jeremey Kerley (97 yds) and David Nelson (80 yds and a 20 yd ypc average) look like the Green Bay Packers skill position players, and come away saying that it was a "good" performance.

 

[mgteich]

Keeping running backs to 3.1 yards per carry is now terrible? The jets ran a lot.

Yes, the jet converted on about half of their third down attempts. The defense might have done better. After all, the jets defense did much better against us.

The defense could have done better than a net of 13 points during regulation play. They gave up 20 points and scored 7.
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But yes, we do have a difference of opinion. I don't consider the 4-3 jets a terrible team, or the most limited offense in the league.
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I also have a bit different view of the TOP stat. Much of the reason that the defense was on the field was the incompetence of the offense in the 2nd half. How many first downs did they have in the 3rd quarter? The defense got off the field lots and lots of times. After all, the jets only scored four times on the defense in regulation. What was the 3rd down efficiency of the offense?
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Our view looking forward is similar. We just have a bit different view of the jets game.

It's hard for me to look at a 46 to 23 minute TOP which allowed 177 rushing yds and made guys like Jeremey Kerley (97 yds) and David Nelson (80 yds and a 20 yd ypc average) look like the Green Bay Packers skill position players, and come away saying that it was a "good" performance.

 

[supafly]

Keeping running backs to 3.1 yards per carry is now terrible? The jets ran a lot.

It actually comes out to a ypc average of 3.4 yds per carry. No, it's not "terrible" by any stretch, but the did what they came into the game wanting to do, which was run the ball effectively and control the clock.

It isn't just about the 177 yds/52 carries, it's also about the fact that they had the TOP 46 to 23 minutes and were able to carry out their game plan.

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But yes, we do have a difference of opinion. I don't consider the 4-3 jets a terrible team, or the most limited offense in the league.

I don't view them as a "terrible" team at all. I think that their 4-3 record (although given 2 wins by a personal foul call) is pretty much where they should be.

I do not see another NFL team whose offensive skill position players are as bad though. Who would it be?

A rookie QB, Bilall Powell, Chris Ivory, Jeremy Kerley, Stephen Hill, and David Nelson? Sounds like a bunch of cast-offs is there ever were a definition.

Their only real players of note are Santonio Holmes, Mike Goodson, and maybe Kellen Winslow, and they were all hurt and not playing yesterday.
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I also have a bit different view of the TOP stat. Much of the reason that the defense was on the field was the incompetence of the offense in the 2nd half. How many first downs did they have in the 3rd quarter? The defense got off the field lots and lots of times. After all, the jets only scored four times on the defense in regulation. What was the 3rd down efficiency of the offense?

I am not as worried about the 3rd down conversions as much as I didn't care for the allowing of 6 scoring drives on 13 total drives. They almost scored on more drives than we even forced them to punt. To me, that doesn't scream "good defense."
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Our view looking forward is similar. We just have a bit different view of the jets game.

Absolutely agreed. The only concern that I'd have is how much the loss of Mayo will affect us moving forward. That will be determined in the upcoming weeks though, and should another injury occur we will be plenty screwed. There is very little room for error, if any at all; and less for an injury that would keep someone out for 2-3 games or longer.

In other words, was it just a mediocre performance in the NYJ game? Or was it the first showing of a defense that isn't nearly as good as it was during the first 6 games of the season? The loss of Mayo may be bigger than we even realize, which says a lot considering how badly many are freaking out about it.

Talib should be back, but when a player keeps having the same nagging injury throughout his first 10-12 games here, who knows how far it may limit him? Will it flare up again? Only time will tell, but we need to try and be prepared for when it does. He's never successfully finished any of his previous 5 seasons, so if he were able to finish this one it'd be his very first.

 

[supafly]

Our view looking forward is similar. We just have a bit different view of the jets game.

I think this is the most important quote out of the whole discussion, and I look forward to seeing them improve a bit on yesterday's performance which should be a realistic expectation.

 

[MTM558]

It's unfortunate that nobody will know how awesome this defense could have really been, with Wilfork and Mayo out for the year, and Kelly and Talib banged up.

There will be some rough patches ahead, but unlike my confidence in the Offense, I am optimistic nonetheless about this unit. However, it hinges upon the HEALTHY return of Kelly and Talib. The fact that they haven't been placed on IR obviously bodes well, and if they can give at least 75% of what they were in the beginning of the season I think this defense has a shot to help.

It all starts up front on the Defensive Line. It has to control the line of scrimmage and be able to rush the QB effectively. Run defense has obviously took a hit with Wilfork gone for the year, and he also had a ripple effect in the against the pass as he often drew double teams. Kelly was also solid against the run and exceptional at rushing the QB. Kelly will be back. A tandem of Kelly with a rotation of Jones/Vellano, and perhaps Armstead, will immediately shore up some of the woes against the run, and will help keep bodies fresh. It doesn't seem like much, but having a vet like Kelly can make that sort of impact. At defensive end, Chandler Jones is starting to get hot as a pass rusher. Rob Ninkovich hasn't been asked to rush much, but he is one of the top rated DEs against the run this season.

A line of Ninkovich-Vellano-Kelly-Jones, with Chris Jones/Armond Armstead and Buchanan rotating in will be a boost.

Linebacker is where some trouble starts to show. Mayo - while not exceptional at anything in particular - was a solid, every down player. Replacing him will not be easy by any means, and it can't be done with any one player. Mayo wore many hats for this team, and now it's up to Hightower, Spikes, Collins and Fletcher to carry the load. The projection is that Hightower and Spikes grow into their expanded roles and are able to handle the run effectively. The biggest issue will be in pass coverage, where Mayo's speed kept him competitive. Hightower and Spikes aren't the fastest players by any stretch, so the hope is that Fletcher and Collins can contribute in this area.

Of course, getting Talib back will make linebacker deficiencies much more manageable. Talib is the most important player on this defense, as he singlehandedly can change the gameplan when he's in the lineup. He inspires the defense, and allows the secondary to play with swagger. Dennard has been impressive as well, and McCourty is thriving as a free safety.

In summary...

Ninkovich - Vellano - Kelly - Jones
Hightower-Spikes-Collins
Talib-Gregory-McCourty-Dennard

is what the predominant base defense will likely be going forward, assuming health permits. Chris Jones/Armond Armstead (maybe), Michael Buchanan, Dane Fletcher, Kyle Arrington and Duron Harmon will be the primary substitutions going forward.

It's not an elite group by any stretch, but it certainly looks like a competitive group. That's all that one can hope for at this stage.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Unlike my confidence in the offense

I think the offense, while not spectacular, will be different when amendola and vareen return. Brady is holding on to the ball too long, mostly because he is afraid to throw to the rooks. That leads to sacks and stalled drives. Amendola, Vareen, Gronk, Edelman and Collie will provide veteran receiving presence for him.

We've seen teams look bad in December and end up winning the super bowl - last year's Ravens.

 

[mgteich]

I thought that the running backs (not including Geno) were at 3.1 ypc; no biggie.

It actually comes out to a ypc average of 3.4 yds per carry. No, it's not "terrible" by any stretch, but the did what they came into the game wanting to do, which was run the ball effectively and control the clock.

 

[Run DMC]

Without big Vince, Mayo, and Talib this D is mediocre at best. 2 of 3 of those guys ain't coming back. talib, who knows. Do you guys realize how important Mayo is to this D?

 

[supafly]

Without big Vince, Mayo, and Talib this D is mediocre at best. 2 of 3 of those guys ain't coming back. talib, who knows.

Do you guys realize how important Mayo is to this D?

I think that is the debate of sorts. After being extremely excited to start the first month of the season which continued throughout our hard stretch of ATL, CIN, and NO, it seemed as though we were an extremely good defense.

It's hard to determine whether or not Mayo's loss is the start of something of a downward spiral (not that I think it will be "that" bad), or if they just played somewhat of a "meh" game on that side of the ball yesterday.

I suppose we will find out soon enough, but it's definitely the loss of Mayo and the placement of Hightower + Spikes + Collins in the spotlight that concerns me the most. The chronic injury issue with Talib, along with the poor performance of Arrington/some uncertainty in the secondary still would be a close second place for me, personally.

 

[supafly]

I thought that the running backs (not including Geno) were at 3.1 ypc; no biggie.

Actually, we're both correct on some level, and you'd be right in stating that minus Smith it was closer to 3 yds per carry (actually 3.2 ypc without Smith).

The overall rush defense ypc was 3.4, which happened on 52 carries for a total of 177 yds.

BUT....

Once you take out Geno Smith's 6 rushes, it does take the overall average down to 3.2 ypc.

Just wanted to take the time to point out the fact that you are correct in that regard.

 

[PatsBoy12]

It was really good up until yesterday. They played WAYYYY too much zone. If that's what we're looking at without Talib, then the team needs to get him locked up after the season. Either that, or find a more than suitable replacement.

Agreed, but I don't know if one exists. There isn't a corner in the league who has outperformed Talib to this point, IMHO.