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Dear Candidate - What Will You Do if Growth Is Over...?

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Titus Pullo, Jul 11, 2010.

  1. Titus Pullo

    Titus Pullo Banned

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    Below is a draft of a letter to an imaginary politician up for election later this year:

    Dear ______________

    You are currently running for office as _____________________ in ____________________. As you know, we are living through economically tough times, and I hear a lot about how the economy can be brought back to stability and prosperity.

    However, have you ever considered that economic growth might actually not return? That we might have to build a societal infrastructure based on less?

    If so, what would be your plans to mitigate such a situation, to make sure that life can go on for your constituents in a future where "more each year" is no longer possible?

    Or alternatively, if you don't have any plans - are you 100 percent certain that growth and prosperity will ever return, and if so, why is it that you see no risk worth looking at?

    Pretend you're the candidate. How would you answer this question?

    Further:

    1. Is there a reason why this kind of letter shouldn't be sent to real people who want our vote?

    2a. Would a candidate addressing these issues/questions stand any chance of winning?

    2b. If not, might such a candidate, even in a losing effort, influence the election issues and as a result positively impact transition efforts away from growth based economy?
  2. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    Titus,

    Can you give us a little background on yourself? Have you been a member here before but just changed your screen name or are you totally new to the PatsFans board?
  3. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    What are your thoughts regarding the future of the US economy?

    If we assume that there will be very little growth moving forward, what are your feelings on gov't social programs and their funding?

    If our population continues to grow, but the tax base remains pretty much the same, what do you believe are the implacations for the average American and our tax system?
  4. Titus Pullo

    Titus Pullo Banned

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    Odd. Questions are posed for discussion, ignored, and met with new questions.

    With out growth, social programs would have to be slowly eliminated, obviously.

    Without growth, population can not continue to grow, long term. The implications would be, well, a good deal of suffering. That is, without drastic measures of mitigation.

    Now then, would you/anyone please be willing to respond to the 4 questions in the opening post?
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2010
  5. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #91 Jersey

    Yeah PR just answer the questions......
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2010
  6. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    I wanted to get some background on the newbie first. But since Flex ganged up on me, I better answer your questions.

    Here goes....

    1. Is there a reason why this kind of letter shouldn't be sent to real people who want our vote?

    I don't think a letter is necessary, but it would certainly be acceptable. I think your questions would be great if asked on a national debate and no side-stepping would be acceptable!

    2a. Would a candidate addressing these issues/questions stand any chance of winning?

    He/she better have a chance of winning because your question is actually the great reality that faces our society! If Americans would rather not hear what the future holds and have their heads stuck in the sand, then our society is sadder than I thought.

    2b. If not, might such a candidate, even in a losing effort, influence the election issues and as a result positively impact transition efforts away from growth based economy?

    Of course it would influence the election! But I fear that most Americans will focus upon who is running (candidate & party) rather than the REAL issues that face us.

    Now addressing whether or not growth & prosperity will return. It is my opinion that we'll never see the kind of growth that we had from 1995-2005. The reason is because that growth wasn't real. It was all "Bubble-Economics" that created the perception of growth & prosperity. It was the great lie of the millenium.

    Real growth can only be attained through increases in real productivity and new industry, not by temporarily stimulating our economy. The middle-class is the most important driver of our economy and sadly, this mega-socio-economic group is being squeezed to death.

    In order for real growth to occurr, there has to be real growth in disposeable income of the middle class. That can only happen when unemployment levels reach around 4% and companies are forced to compete for labor and drive real income upward.

    I'm going to start a new thread on what I think is the best way for our economy as well as the world economy to get our of this funk. But I'll tell you that it involves getting rid of all stock markets so that public companies no longer exist.
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2010
  7. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    1. The letter should be sent on principle. It won't work because Americans are unwilling to sacrifice any progress and growth because of their "Divine Right" to have and do whatever they want.

    2a. No. Any candidate who ever adressed these issues would be drummed out of the process by both parties. For proof, refer to the candidacies of Ralph Nader, Ron Paul, Dennis Kucinich, etc... There is nothing the American voter hates more than the truth.

    2b. See 2a.
  8. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    "Because the dominant focus of technology is to substitute labor (a process known as productivity growth), an imbalance in income growth sets in between those sectors where productivity rises—in other words, industry—and those where it cannot; in health care, education, justice, and public administration, for example. Wage demands in these sectors cannot be absorbed by rising output, although due attempts are made by amalgamating schools, closing senior citizens' homes and hospitals, abolishing police corps, and overloading the courts. The ultimate outcome is that the modern welfare society is disappearing, to the benefit of growing private consumption and the enrichment of a small elite. The neoliberal model thus becomes the future: miserable public services, bad public transport, decrepid and unsafe inner cities, overcrowded and ever more unhygienic hospitals, impoverished senior citizens; unmotivated, poor education; neglected culture, minimization of scientific research, and environmental neglect."

    limits to growth: a report to the club of rome
  9. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    A letter should be sent, but one shouldn't have to be.

    Their chances of winning would be strictly related to the office they were seaking, and its location. If you're running for office here in Chelsea, LOL. If you're running for office in some town in NH persay, then it might resonate. Nationally, good luck. We just saw what happy speak does in a national election. Just hollar "together we can" in a sincere way, or articulately read "change" a million different ways off a teleprompter, and people will elect you. Go up on those same stages and talk about how we're broke, need massive cuts, and how everyone's life as they know it, is going to change for the worse, to make things better, and you get called a loon, and at some point, alot of other things. When almost half of the income tax paying populace, doesn't pay income taxes, and the tens of millions that don't even work, get a vote, then you're looking at a near impossible task, if you talk about fiscal reality, and are looking to get elected. It just ain't gonna happen friend.

    Maybe such a candidate could stir the pot a little bit (think of Ron Paul), but because of the reasons above, it simply won't be enough to muster the votes needed to win. Too many non contributors, and free loaders inside the system (both civilian, and corporate), and not enough principled patriots to make up the difference.
  10. Titus Pullo

    Titus Pullo Banned

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    so then if real growth is defined as an expansion of goods and services over a period of time, what then drives that expansion of goods and services? To anyone.
  11. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    Hey rookie...make your points. Don't insult other members by acting as if you know the answers and lead us along via some childish quiz.

    What do YOU think drives expansion and of goods and services and I'll let you know if you're right or not.

    Are you attempting to make any points or lead members into some sort of "Aha" trap?
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2010
  12. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    ROFLMAO Talk about "insulting."
  13. Titus Pullo

    Titus Pullo Banned

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    Excuse me? How did I insult anyone? Who took that question to further discussion as somehow insulting? And, you'll let me know if I'm right or not? Dude, what is your deal?
  14. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Who was the dude that answered a question, with a question? Was it Apple Strudell, or am I mistaking him for someone else? I wonder if that's why PR asked if Titus was new, or some form of retread. I'm not saying anything about you Titus, just trying to figure out where PR is coming from is all.
  15. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #91 Jersey

    I don't get it either, i think PR is intimidated.....
  16. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I doubt any candidate would answer it since if growth is over it means capitalism is over. Marx said that capitalism would ultimately die because it would run out of markets. Our system needs new markets to grow. But, as time has shown, new technologies (such as the internet), new niches (such as gays), globalization, increased birth rates, as well as military strikes to destroy and rebuild all create new markets. If we were in real danger of running out of markets, then there would probably be a war in order to destroy the existing infrastructure so that it could be rebuilt.

    But, if growth was somehow no longer an option, then the world would have no choice but to look at alternative economic systems, such as Marxism or feudalism, which do not depend on growth. But, I think the ruling classes would do what they've done in the past, and create a global conflict before surrendering their power. At any rate, at least in any of our lifetimes I don't think the scenario you present is plausible (except perhaps if a natural resource suddenly gets used up).

    At any rate, the issue you raise is mentally stimulating, I think.

    And, welcome to the forum.
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2010
  17. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Ummmm, hey! Titus!
    Stick to important stuff like Rev Wright, Sarah Palin, and who's better-Libs or Cons! Get with the freaking program! This difficult future stuff is hurting my head.:bricks:
  18. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    I'll tell you what my "deal" is "Titus". Most people who post here make their points straight up. But your positioning your posts as if your quizzing other members.

    Like this...

    "To anyone"??? Are you trying to lead a classroom or something? Bueller?:rolleyes:

    You have not made one point yet. And to RW's point, we do have idiots who have "come back" to this board after they changed their screen name and acted as if they're new. I'm not saying you've done that, but I'm always skeptical.

    Then we have people who think they're slick and ask a series of questions of our members. Once they get their answers, they TRY to make their point as if they've outsmarted everyone.

    So, let me kindly ask you to make your all your points BEFORE you quiz us.

    To the Roman Titus Pullo, what are your points? That Rome is falling? :D

    P.S. To anyone skeptical of my criticism. I GUARANTEE that "Titus" has a pre-determined agenda for this thread which is probably to show that capitalism will no longer work. An honest person would have just come right out and made that statement. A false intellectual would quiz everyone and then show where they are wrong.
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2010
  19. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    On economics?

    Pah-LEEZ Flex! You gotta come better than that.

    It doesn't take a brainiac to figure out that Titus wants to wait until he finishes quizzing the board before he makes his points. When we post, we make our points and then get the opinion of others.

    Titus is stringing this out according to some pre-determined agenda and I'm not going to allow that....at least not with me.

    But if you'd like to play his game, by all means, go for it.

    That would be better than the sideline chatter you're engaging in so far in this thread. You haven't made a single point other than to comment on me. Time to man-up Flex. What is YOUR opinion?
  20. BSR

    BSR Rookie

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    Growth is not permanatly over.

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