DE Will Smith Visiting Patriots April 1

[Ivan]

Chung makes 10.

Thanks, forgot about him. If the reports about Ryan are correct and Browner can also contribute at the position, which i believe is a real possibility, then they have McCourty, Ryan, Harmon, Chung, Wilson, and Ebner, as well as Browner available to play safety for them next season, and while an upgrade is possible i wouldn't put safety anywhere near the top of the needs category and in fact would have it close to the bottom. overall the DB's are as good an as versatile as any group they have had there in years and years, imo they are good to go in the secondary.

Then again i also believe they will sign Revis long term and trade Mallett for the #33.........................

 

[mgteich]

Yes, we usually carry ten. We need eight who can play defensive back (4 corners, 3 safeties, plus 1 more). How many special teamers is somewhat irrelevant, although we susually carry two defensive backs who we do not want on the field on defensive downs. We currently have 4 players competing for these 2 positions (Chung, Wilson, Ebner and Davis).

Our 7 are: Revis, Browner, Dennard, Arrington, Ryan, McCourty and Harmon. For the first four games, we have 3 corners and 2 safeties, plus a swing man (Ryan). IMHO, this is still thin. I agree that the defensive backfield is not in as much need as the front seven, where there is almost no depth at DE and LB.

However, we are still one player short. Of course, some think of Chung as the 8th defensive back, capable of significant reps. Some would have us sign Gregory for that role (I would).
Some would draft a corner. Some would draft a safety. In any case, it is prudent to go into the season with EIGHT defensive backs that we are comfortable playing defensive back. I don't think that we have that now. And I don't think that we would have 8 with a late round draft choice, who would likely take a year to develop.

So, I would sign an addition free agent AND draft a defensive back.

If the reports that Ryan is moving to safety are true then it means their DB's are as follows D. Revis, B. Browner, A. Dennard, K.Arrington, D. McCourty, L. Ryan, D. Harmon, T. Wilson, N. Ebner. That's 9 defensive backs and they generally carry 10. Now Wilson and Ebner could be considered bubble guys but at this point they are at the back of the unit anyways and if Browner and Ryan can both play safety in addition to McCourty then overall it the defensive backfield is one of the deepest units on the team as a whole and not a need right now. If, on the other hand, they are looking more in the tradition of the strong safety mold than as left and right safeties then they may see it as a need and go get one, but at least imo that's not how they are looking at it and what they have already gives them a unit they can go into the season with as it stands.


If it were up to me, which it generally is, then i would focus on the front 7 defensively and the interior OL and TE position as the remaining needs, with LB and the 2nd TE as the most pressing of those needs.

 

[Ivan]

Yes, we usually carry ten. We need eight who can play defensive back (4 corners, 3 safeties, plus 1 more). How many special teamers is somewhat irrelevant, although we susually carry two defensive backs who we do not want on the field on defensive downs. We currently have 4 players competing for these 2 positions (Chung, Wilson, Ebner and Davis).

Our 7 are: Revis, Browner, Dennard, Arrington, Ryan, McCourty and Harmon. For the first four games, we have 3 corners and 2 safeties, plus a swing man (Ryan). IMHO, this is still thin. I agree that the defensive backfield is not in as much need as the front seven, where there is almost no depth at DE and LB.

However, we are still one player short. Of course, some think of Chung as the 8th defensive back, capable of significant reps. Some would have us sign Gregory for that role (I would).
Some would draft a corner. Some would draft a safety. In any case, it is prudent to go into the season with EIGHT defensive backs that we are comfortable playing defensive back. I don't think that we have that now. And I don't think that we would have 8 with a late round draft choice, who would likely take a year to develop.

So, I would sign an addition free agent AND draft a defensive back.

I think they could go into the season tomorrow comfortable with their secondary but I agree that they will still add more pieces and see who wins the jobs, especially at the back end of the roster. And while i don't think safety is a need I always feel like Belichick is open to taking a prospect if he sees one he loves and the value is there, so i wouldn't rule out a high pick on one but don't think it is a priority.

As far as their first pick goes i think LB/DE is the most likely pick, but if either Nix or Hagemann is there Belichick's love of big men in the first could win out and either could be the choice.

 

[RayClay]

After his inability to contribute last year when he had as many openings as he did it is really hard for me to see how he has anything to contribute. Belichick clearly knows what he is doing but Bequette is just one of those head scratchers, and in the end most of them end up cut.

My point is, why isn't he cut already? Why didn't they keep Francis? Outside of Ochocinco, I don't think BB has ever been a frivolous person in regards to personnel.

I'll go with my Detective Columbo hunch just because it doesn't make sense.

I'd be curious to see if he got bigger, for instance.

 

[captain stone]

Funny comment about positions where we have Gronk, Jones and Ninkovich being the biggest need.

Remind me again, what did the TEs & DEs do v the Donkeys in the AFCC?

 

[supafly]

If Ryan is moving to safety, I would think that we need a corner rather than a safety.

If the reports that Ryan is moving to safety are true

I started a thread the night the rumors came out, but we really have no idea whether or not Logan Ryan will be playing safety or not.

I definitely agree that "if" he does, it immediately changes the complexion of the position of safety. However, if it's just a rumor, we don't have much back there at all.

Harmon is completely unproven, and looked mediocre over the whole body of work in my opinion. He is still an unknown commodity in my eyes. Tavon Wilson, Chung, and Ebner don't seem to be anything more than special teams backups, and I doubt all 3 make the roster anyway.

It seems like a fine line between things being okay, or the position totally lacking any depth and talent whatsoever.

FWIW---I think that the general position of DB is always a consideration for a top 3-4 round draft pick.

 

[Ring 6]

Remind me again, what did the TEs & DEs do v the Donkeys in the AFCC?

The TE was on his couch with a torn up knee and the DEs spent the day frustrated because we couldn't cover long enough for them to have time to get to the QB

Are you telling me Gronk, Jones and Ninkovich are weaknesses?

 

[mgteich]

Harmon is "totally" unproven? Perhaps, Belichick disagrees and thinks that he had a reasonable rookie year, and will be fine opposite McCourty with the improved situation at cornerback.

We need a #3 safety. Chung is a #4 who plays special teams. Perhaps, Belichick sees him as a #3, with moving over one of the corners as another option.

I strongly agree with your last statement. A defensive back is always being considered when picking in the first four rounds.

I started a thread the night the rumors came out, but we really have no idea whether or not Logan Ryan will be playing safety or not.

I definitely agree that "if" he does, it immediately changes the complexion of the position of safety. However, if it's just a rumor, we don't have much back there at all.

Harmon is completely unproven, and looked mediocre over the whole body of work in my opinion. He is still an unknown commodity in my eyes. Tavon Wilson, Chung, and Ebner don't seem to be anything more than special teams backups, and I doubt all 3 make the roster anyway.

It seems like a fine line between things being okay, or the position totally lacking any depth and talent whatsoever.

FWIW---I think that the general position of DB is always a consideration for a top 3-4 round draft pick.

 

[supafly]

Harmon is "totally" unproven? Perhaps, Belichick disagrees and thinks that he had a reasonable rookie year, and will be fine opposite McCourty with the improved situation at cornerback.

We need a #3 safety. Chung is a #4 who plays special teams. Perhaps, Belichick sees him as a #3, with moving over one of the corners as another option.

I strongly agree with your last statement. A defensive back is always being considered when picking in the first four rounds.

I rarely debate Belichick's moves, and I would never imagine myself claiming to know more than 1% of what he does, but I'm not quite as sure as you seem to be that Harmon is definitely the answer after one mediocre rookie year.

Let's call it what it was. It wasn't good, it wasn't bad. It was mediocre. Perhaps, as you say, BB feels good enough with that moving forward. I would prefer to see another player or two brought in for competition and depth, but obviously my opinion doesn't matter of course. I think we're more prone to consider "mediocre" as better when it comes from a rookie, but it's hard to predict if he's just building up to a better talent, or if he's actually mediocre. I guess that's what BB is the expert

If Logan Ryan is being considered for safety, then I would fully agree with everything that you say. We have no idea if that's true though, so only time will tell. If Ryan can compete with Harmon as the S2/S3, then that would leave us with 3 decent options for the 1-3 spots. That's about the best one can ask for.

 

[ausbacker]

I rarely debate Belichick's moves, and I would never imagine myself claiming to know more than 1% of what he does, but I'm not quite as sure as you seem to be that Harmon is definitely the answer after one mediocre rookie year.

Let's call it what it was. It wasn't good, it wasn't bad. It was mediocre. Perhaps, as you say, BB feels good enough with that moving forward. I would prefer to see another player or two brought in for competition and depth, but obviously my opinion doesn't matter of course. I think we're more prone to consider "mediocre" as better when it comes from a rookie, but it's hard to predict if he's just building up to a better talent, or if he's actually mediocre. I guess that's what BB is the expert

If Logan Ryan is being considered for safety, then I would fully agree with everything that you say. We have no idea if that's true though, so only time will tell. If Ryan can compete with Harmon as the S2/S3, then that would leave us with 3 decent options for the 1-3 spots. That's about the best one can ask for.

The thing that interests me with a possible Ryan to Safety conversion is his range and ball hawking abilities. That said, I like Harmon but if Calvin Pryor is in draft range for the Patriots, you would have to seriously considering trading up for him.

 

[mgteich]

As is usual the case, we agree much more than any minor disagreements.

I did not like the choice of Harmon. His rookie year did not convince me that he was a good choice for starting safety. However, he is here, and it seems that he is an OK safety. I agree that we will likely draft a defensive back somewhere in the first four rounds; we almost always do. I could even see a pick in the first tow rounds: Fuller, Bucannon, or Ward.

I rarely debate Belichick's moves, and I would never imagine myself claiming to know more than 1% of what he does, but I'm not quite as sure as you seem to be that Harmon is definitely the answer after one mediocre rookie year.

Let's call it what it was. It wasn't good, it wasn't bad. It was mediocre. Perhaps, as you say, BB feels good enough with that moving forward. I would prefer to see another player or two brought in for competition and depth, but obviously my opinion doesn't matter of course. I think we're more prone to consider "mediocre" as better when it comes from a rookie, but it's hard to predict if he's just building up to a better talent, or if he's actually mediocre. I guess that's what BB is the expert

If Logan Ryan is being considered for safety, then I would fully agree with everything that you say. We have no idea if that's true though, so only time will tell. If Ryan can compete with Harmon as the S2/S3, then that would leave us with 3 decent options for the 1-3 spots. That's about the best one can ask for.

 

[supafly]

As is usual the case, we agree much more than any minor disagreements.

I did not like the choice of Harmon. His rookie year did not convince me that he was a good choice for starting safety. However, he is here, and it seems that he is an OK safety. I agree that we will likely draft a defensive back somewhere in the first four rounds; we almost always do. I could even see a pick in the first tow rounds: Fuller, Bucannon, or Ward.

I think as fans, we should hope for one of two scenarios:

1. That Logan Ryan is indeed being thrown into the mix to play safety, which would give us a top 3 of McCourty, Harmon, and Ryan. That should be good enough, based on the number of reps from our top 3 guys historically.

2. That we will be drafting a safety (or even a bigger CB to play safety) to compete with Harmon for the #2, with the loser getting the #3 designation. Again, that would give us a "good enough" top 1-3 spots at the position, and if a guy like Tavon Wilson or Pat Chung actually can step it up, a fairly decent 1-4.

At this particular moment though, Belichick appears to have decided against keeping the guys that we had AND bringing a player via free agency, so something has to be going on in the above 2 scenarios.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Been mentioned by several previously but I think it should be standard scouting procedure to look for larger CBs who if not gifted enough to make it as a starting CB might be converted to safety. Enough with the surfs; you can usually find a quick smurf in the later rounds if you need a nickel.

 

[DW Toys]

Been mentioned by several previously but I think it should be standard scouting procedure to look for larger CBs who if not gifted enough to make it as a starting CB might be converted to safety. Enough with the surfs; you can usually find a quick smurf in the later rounds if you need a nickel.

Bravo Cousin. Excellent post!
Quick twitch was the motto. That worked really well....
DW Toys

 

[mgteich]

While I agree, there is a 3rd possibility. Belichick might be fine with expecting Harmon to be the starter, and be OK with Chung/Wilson as the #3 (more than A Wilson or Gregory because of their special team play). And yes, this scenario has a Plan B if it fails: move a corner to safety.

This scenario does not REQUIRE the drafting of a defensive back who will contribute this year, or even next. Of course, Belichick seems to always draft defensive backs.

I am fine if Belichick sees value in a 1st or 2nd round defensive back.

However, I don't think that we should expect a 4th or later to be a major contributor this year, although he could be a competitor for the #3 position. To me, a late pick would simply mean that Belichick has confidence in Harmon (and Chung/Wilson and his corners).

I think as fans, we should hope for one of two scenarios:

1. That Logan Ryan is indeed being thrown into the mix to play safety, which would give us a top 3 of McCourty, Harmon, and Ryan. That should be good enough, based on the number of reps from our top 3 guys historically.

2. That we will be drafting a safety (or even a bigger CB to play safety) to compete with Harmon for the #2, with the loser getting the #3 designation. Again, that would give us a "good enough" top 1-3 spots at the position, and if a guy like Tavon Wilson or Pat Chung actually can step it up, a fairly decent 1-4.

At this particular moment though, Belichick appears to have decided against keeping the guys that we had AND bringing a player via free agency, so something has to be going on in the above 2 scenarios.

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

If Ryan ends up being in the safety picture (even if not full-time) I think the spot is in very good hands, both from a youth and talent perspective. If BB wishes another body at the safety spot I think it much more likely that BB re-signs Gregory, and teams him up with Chung to provide capable vets as backups, than to draft one.

If Ryan is kept outside at corner then I think it's likely another safety is added in the draft though, I suppose, it is always possible Gregory could find his way back as well instead.

 

[captain stone]

The TE was on his couch with a torn up knee and the DEs spent the day frustrated because we couldn't cover long enough for them to have time to get to the QB

Are you telling me Gronk, Jones and Ninkovich are weaknesses?

What I am saying is that, like some other positions, TE & DE are not exclusively the realm
of 1 & 2 players respectively. Bill has looked at TE as a multiple-man position ever since
he drafted 2 of them in the first round inside of 3 years. And expecting your 2 starting DEs
to play over 95% of available snaps is just plain suicidal; we absolutely must have more
than only Chandler & Ninko, for their sakes.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Lack of any viable rotation at DE is why FA Will Smith is a likely but even moreso, we'll draft a DE in rounds 1 or 2*

* apologies to Jake Bequette, we hardly knew ye

 

[mgteich]

So, why didn't we draft a DE last year in Rounds 1 or 2? The argument was the same then.

Lack of any viable rotation at DE is why FA Will Smith is a likely but even moreso, we'll draft a DE in rounds 1 or 2*

* apologies to Jake Bequette, we hardly knew ye

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

So, why didn't we draft a DE last year in Rounds 1 or 2? The argument was the same then.

You are asking ME to explain BB's well-documented draft perversity???

I can't believe he thought that 2nd year Bequette was the answer to rotation at DE (see other thread).