DE-Ranks and Values

[chevss454]

Well, I don't have much expertise here but I can relay who Mayoclinic likes:
Dunlap, Austin Lane, A. Carrington, C. Geathers, C. Peters.

http://www.patriotsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=54756&page=4

 

[jeffbiologist]

By the way, I disagree with the whole premise that RDE is the biggest hole on this team. The awful playoff game is obviously the last and most lasting impression of that team. But besides that game, the Pats were actually pretty good against the run all year. The problem is that they couldn't rush the passer, event in the nickel formations. I think the DL could be OK with a year under the belt of Brace and Pryor. Another guy worth watching is last year's 7th round pick - Darryl Richard. He has the size to play the position and was a 2 gap DL in college. Based on his combine numbers, he clearly needed some time in the weight room. Assuming he's gotten stronger and bulkier, he might well be a part-time DE for this team.

BESIDES THE PLAYOFF GAME?? Are you joking?? That is all that matters around here! Getting a DE that can play all 3 downs against the run and the pass is alot more valuable than a 3rd down sack specialist. Having your best players playing side by side makes it impossible to double BOTH of them right??
So if DE isnt the biggest need what is? Its nice developing lower round picks as these can be thrown in on trades for bigger players. On this team they rarely get opportunity to be much more than a role player. I mean if Bledsoe doesnt get hurt.....know what I mean? The law firm rushed for 100 yards more than once but only because someone else was hurt....and hasnt since. Edleman caught about 100 yds in passes the 2nd game when Welker couldnt go.....and never did again. I dont want to draft any more backups, I'd like to see em get a guy that can be a positional mismatch and they dont come around too often.

 

[upstater1]

Mack Mitchell
Steve Niehaus
Eddie Edwards
Bruce Clark
Kenneth Sims
Jon Hand
Steve Emtman
Aundray Bruce
Russell Maryland
Dan Wilkinson
Mike Mamula
Cedric Jones
Darryl Russell
Andre Wadsworth
Courtney Brown
Gerard Warren
Dewayne Robertson
Johnathan Sullivan
Gaines Adams
Tyson Jackson

These are the names of some of the DT/DEs picked high over the last 3 decades, and now the draftees make huge money--in fact, the cap problem they create will be the worst ever since the players are going to get the biggest rookie contracts ever, and the salary cap in going to decrease in the future.

These are the names that would prevent me from giving up multiple picks to grab a DE/DT at the top of the draft.

 

[WhiZa]

we are not going to a base 4-3..my goodness..maybe c it sum but a 3-4 and nickel will be the majority

What makes you say that? Right now there are 2 glaring needs at OLB and DE in a 3-4. We wont be able to fill that through the draft unless we get really lucky. If we switch to 4-3 there is one glaring need at DE. We can use our 1st round pick at DE, and resign Burgess as insurance.

 

[bucky]

BESIDES THE PLAYOFF GAME?? Are you joking?? That is all that matters around here! Getting a DE that can play all 3 downs against the run and the pass is alot more valuable than a 3rd down sack specialist. Having your best players playing side by side makes it impossible to double BOTH of them right??
So if DE isnt the biggest need what is? Its nice developing lower round picks as these can be thrown in on trades for bigger players. On this team they rarely get opportunity to be much more than a role player. I mean if Bledsoe doesnt get hurt.....know what I mean? The law firm rushed for 100 yards more than once but only because someone else was hurt....and hasnt since. Edleman caught about 100 yds in passes the 2nd game when Welker couldnt go.....and never did again. I dont want to draft any more backups, I'd like to see em get a guy that can be a positional mismatch and they dont come around too often.

Of course playoff games are important. But you can't blame that entire debacle on 1 position. The entire team played poorly - Vince, all the LBs, Warren - they just got pushed around. And while it's bad, especially the timing of it and the location, it's not a trend like it was in 2002.

As for what is a bigger hole? Well OLB is for one. How about TE? How would you like Sam Aiken playing 70% of the snaps next year? There are actually quite a few holes on this team right now.

I agree with the concept of getting a "positional mismatch". But that hardly ever happens from day 1 at DL. Seymour was a just a marginal player as a rookie. Suh probably will be as well. So there isn't a quick fix solution here. Just keep the picks, draft the best players, develop them, and hope they can contribute ASAP. I do agree that we need to draft someone who can be a play maker in the limited snaps he'll have this year - be it a pass rusher, WR, or RB.

 

[bucky]

What makes you say that? Right now there are 2 glaring needs at OLB and DE in a 3-4. We wont be able to fill that through the draft unless we get really lucky. If we switch to 4-3 there is one glaring need at DE. We can use our 1st round pick at DE, and resign Burgess as insurance.

Here are some reasons why I think we'll be staying with the 3-4:

1) Resigning Wilfork - he's not worth that much money as a DT.
2) Resigning TBC - he's being paid as a starter and he clearly fits better as a 34 OLB than either DE or OLB in the 4-3.
3) We didn't get any of the 4-3 DEs. We did make a run at Peppers, but now that he's gone, along with Kampman, etc. there's no point in switching. BTW, I don't think it's a coincidence that TBC was signed after Peppers was committed to the Bears. I think the Pats were keeping their options option and had Peppers signed, we would have been more likely to switch to 4-3 and TBC may not have gotten that much $$.
4) We don't have an SOLB for the 4-3. McKenzie might be able to do it, as that was his position in college. But that would be asking a lot and spreading our LBs razor thin.

 

[SunnyDenmark]

BESIDES THE PLAYOFF GAME?? Are you joking?? That is all that matters around here! Getting a DE that can play all 3 downs against the run and the pass is alot more valuable than a 3rd down sack specialist. Having your best players playing side by side makes it impossible to double BOTH of them right??
So if DE isnt the biggest need what is? Its nice developing lower round picks as these can be thrown in on trades for bigger players. On this team they rarely get opportunity to be much more than a role player. I mean if Bledsoe doesnt get hurt.....know what I mean? The law firm rushed for 100 yards more than once but only because someone else was hurt....and hasnt since. Edleman caught about 100 yds in passes the 2nd game when Welker couldnt go.....and never did again. I dont want to draft any more backups, I'd like to see em get a guy that can be a positional mismatch and they dont come around too often.

Jeff , as usual you have some great points - especially about the role players at the end of your post. But I have to disagree about DE being the biggest need. We had Seymore, Warren and big VW all together for many years and how far did that get Pats? Close in 2007 - others years not (plus in '07 it was due to offense not defense). The front lines are important - no doubt. But now it is a passing league- and the trend of spread offenses is only increasing.. Colts win lots of game every year with small D-line players but a damn good pass rush.

Furthermore, with TB - Pats are usually high in the league in points per game, which often times means other teams playing catch up and throwing more than running. A stout d-line yes. But a superior d-line (at expense of rush and / or DB's). No thanks. Thats why the AJ Feelys of the NFL carve up Pats secondary. ie. No pass rush.

 

[Marqui]

Corey Wooten is 6'6" 285 pounds and a pretty good player.

You can get him in the middle of the 2nd round, if that's what you're looking for.

So big DEs are at a premium but you don't have to go all out to jump on Odrick the way teams were jumping on Jackson last year.

There are other players like Wooten out there.

Wooten is easily my highest rated DE in the draft. I hope the Pats take him at 44. And I think he's actually 6'7.

 

[Taxed in Maine]

Jeff , as usual you have some great points - especially about the role players at the end of your post. But I have to disagree about DE being the biggest need. We had Seymore, Warren and big VW all together for many years and how far did that get Pats? Close in 2007 - others years not (plus in '07 it was due to offense not defense). The front lines are important - no doubt. But now it is a passing league- and the trend of spread offenses is only increasing.. Colts win lots of game every year with small D-line players but a damn good pass rush.

Furthermore, with TB - Pats are usually high in the league in points per game, which often times means other teams playing catch up and throwing more than running. A stout d-line yes. But a superior d-line (at expense of rush and / or DB's). No thanks. Thats why the AJ Feelys of the NFL carve up Pats secondary. ie. No pass rush.

And the reason there is no pass rush last season is because J. Green wasn't up to the task of being the starter at RDE. No double teams needed, leaving blockers to pick up our OLBs. It's time for another DE to compliment Wilfork and Warren.

Also, who is this magical OLB that we are going to draft 22? Carlos Dunlap? He's a turd with no position in this defense. The only one I see that would be a fit in the late 1st/early 2nd is Jerry Hughes.

And please stop with the change to the 4-3 defense crap. Bill has built his entire career as a 3-4 Defense coach. Yeah, they use it some, but the base is going to be a 3-4.

 

[Marqui]

Carlos Dunlap? He's a turd with no position in this defense.

And please stop with the change to the 4-3 defense crap. Bill has built his entire career as a 3-4 Defense coach. Yeah, they use it some, but the base is going to be a 3-4.

TRUTH!

Anyway Greg Hardy is the magical OLB we could draft at 22.

 

[dryheat44]

TRUTH!

Anyway Greg Hardy is the magical OLB we could draft at 22.

Huh. I was under the impression that Greg Hardy was the underachieving 4-3 Defensive End who we could draft at 116.

 

[Taxed in Maine]

Wooten is easily my highest rated DE in the draft. I hope the Pats take him at 44. And I think he's actually 6'7.

Good player, but at 6'6" and 275lbs, he's another 4-3 DE.
Not athletic or agile enough to be an OLB, and 20-25 lbs short of being a DE.

 

[Since1971]

Basically the Patriots are returning the same unit as last year across the D Line minus Green who was much more of a situational player. So if the team did nothing they could put out an adequate line.

God I hope they don't do that. I want the front seven to be superior.

Outside of Odrick I don't see anyone who can come close to starting in year 1 that is why I have proposed tarding a 2nd rounder for either Marcus Spears or Kedric Golston from Washington.

Some possibilities for 3-4 DE, as you said not an OLB, not a NT but a 3-4 end include:
Round 1
Jared Odrick DT Penn State 6-5 304

Round 2
Tyson Alualu DT California 6-3 295 <-- a bit short but has played in a 3-4
Cam Thomas DT North Carolina 6-4 330 <-- a bit heavy but apparently moves pretty well

Rounds 2+
Alex Carrington DE Arkansas State 6-5 285
Lamarr Houston DT Texas 6-3 305
Mike Neal DT Purdue 6-3 294
Arthur Jones DT Syracuse 6-3 301
C.J. Wilson DE East Carolina 6-3 290
Al Woods DT LSU
Vince Oghobaase DT Duke 6-5 302 <-- falling fast
Sean Lissemore DT William & Mary 6-3 297

Very interested in opinions on these or any other prospects.

Good job listing and categorizing these 3/4 D/E's. I think there is about 75-80% chance that one of these guys is going to be drafted by Patriots. Odrick seems like the best value and the surest bet if he is on the board at 22.

 

[WhiZa]

Here are some reasons why I think we'll be staying with the 3-4:

1) Resigning Wilfork - he's not worth that much money as a DT.
2) Resigning TBC - he's being paid as a starter and he clearly fits better as a 34 OLB than either DE or OLB in the 4-3.
3) We didn't get any of the 4-3 DEs. We did make a run at Peppers, but now that he's gone, along with Kampman, etc. there's no point in switching. BTW, I don't think it's a coincidence that TBC was signed after Peppers was committed to the Bears. I think the Pats were keeping their options option and had Peppers signed, we would have been more likely to switch to 4-3 and TBC may not have gotten that much $$.
4) We don't have an SOLB for the 4-3. McKenzie might be able to do it, as that was his position in college. But that would be asking a lot and spreading our LBs razor thin.

I feel like this went over my head. TBC had his best year last year when he was starting DE in their 4-3 defense. Why sign the guy to big money if you're just going to switch him to OLB where he's couldn't cut it before?

Also, Guyton can play SOLB. Making a line of Guyton-Mayo-Thomas/Woods. I would think using a 3-4 would spread the LBs razor thin since it's an extra position that also needs depth.

 

[Marqui]

Huh. I was under the impression that Greg Hardy was the underachieving 4-3 Defensive End who we could draft at 116.

Yeah you're right. For example, Justin Tuck is a perfect example of why you should never draft players that underachieved due to injuries

Good player, but at 6'6" and 275lbs, he's another 4-3 DE.
Not athletic or agile enough to be an OLB, and 20-25 lbs short of being a DE.

According to NFL teams' scouts (you know, the opinions that actually matter), Hardy is being viewed as a 3-4 OLB by everyone.
KFFL - Article - NFL Draft: Prospects in the news

Mississippi DE/LB Greg Hardy was asked during the NFL Scouting Combine if teams were looking at him as a better fit in a 3-4 defensive scheme or a 4-3 defensive scheme. Hardy said, "Right now in interviews everybody is looking at me at linebacker in a 3-4."

I don't know where you got your info from but Hardy is very athletic and has run 4.6s last year. He definitely needs to lose 10 pounds, sure, but that would take what? 4 weeks over TC?

 

[dryheat44]

Yeah you're right. For example, Justin Tuck is a perfect example of why you should never draft players that underachieved due to injuries

Or, as other people see it, he underachieved due to a lack of effort.

Look, even if you believe Hardy is going to be a great player for the Patriots, and judging by your posts on this forum either you do, you're a relative, or you're a big Ole Miss fan, why would you draft a guy at #22 who right now is a 3rd-4th round projection?

Funny thing is, if Hardy were in the draft last year, I would have strongly advocated taking him. Funnier thing is two years ago, if Selvie were in the draft, I would have strongly advocated taking him. As it is, neither one of them is on my 2010 board.

 

[patchick]

Wooten is easily my highest rated DE in the draft. I hope the Pats take him at 44. And I think he's actually 6'7.

Nope, 6'6" on the dot, though with nice long arms.

More significantly, Wooton's only 270 lbs (not 285 as stated earlier in this thread) and from what I gather he played at 265-270. In other words, he's 15-20 lbs lighter than Jarvis Green, the Pats' lightest DE in recent memory. With a little extra burst he'd be the prototype build for a Pats OLB, but he's not really that kind of explosive athlete.

 

[Marqui]

why would you draft a guy at #22 who right now is a 3rd-4th round projection?

3rd-4th round projection according to who? People who will have no hand in what actually happens on draft day?

Nope, 6'6" on the dot, though with nice long arms.

More significantly, Wooton's only 270 lbs (not 285 as stated earlier in this thread) and from what I gather he played at 265-270. In other words, he's 15-20 lbs lighter than Jarvis Green, the Pats' lightest DE in recent memory. With a little extra burst he'd be the prototype build for a Pats OLB, but he's not really that kind of explosive athlete.

True, he would have to bulk up to play 3-4 DE in the NFL. But I think he's capable of putting on a lot more weight on his frame. He was actually pretty explosive before his knee injury and started the flash some of that explosiveness towards the end of this season as he got healthier.

 

[bucky]

I feel like this went over my head. TBC had his best year last year when he was starting DE in their 4-3 defense. Why sign the guy to big money if you're just going to switch him to OLB where he's couldn't cut it before?

Also, Guyton can play SOLB. Making a line of Guyton-Mayo-Thomas/Woods. I would think using a 3-4 would spread the LBs razor thin since it's an extra position that also needs depth.

Well yeah, you're right. They're razor thing either way. Switching to a 4-3 won't really help. TBC played DE in their nickel defense - which was a purely pass rushing mode. When they were in a base 4-3, if you remember, they played a big front line (Warren, Wright, Wilfork, Green) and 3 OLBs on the LOS, making it almost a 6-1 look. TBC wasn't on the field for those alignments. It was typically Guyton, AD, and either Mayo or Woods. Later in the year, when TBC became the starter, they pretty much abandoned the 4-3 base look and went exclusively 3-4 except for the nickel defense. That's why I'm saying TBC is a 3-4 OLB. That's what he's been ever since he came out of college, including with the 49ers. As for Guyton playing SOLB, he probably could, but there isn't any evidence of that. And then we'd be looking at McKenzie playing where? Will? Mike? Not sure the personnel is there right now to make the switch. I agree that we lack personnel for the 34 as well. But all things being equal, and knowing BB prefers 3-4, I don't see a 43 switch happening.

 

[bucky]

Nope, 6'6" on the dot, though with nice long arms.

More significantly, Wooton's only 270 lbs (not 285 as stated earlier in this thread) and from what I gather he played at 265-270. In other words, he's 15-20 lbs lighter than Jarvis Green, the Pats' lightest DE in recent memory. With a little extra burst he'd be the prototype build for a Pats OLB, but he's not really that kind of explosive athlete.

You're right that he weighed in at 270 at the combine. There was an interview that I found with Wootton where he claims he's 282. So go figure. Bobby Hamilton and Pleasant both played in the 280-285 range though. Jarvis is 285 now (supposedly) but I think he was only around 275-280 when he came out and was also short for the position. I think Wootton has the frame to eventually play at 290+ and be fine. He wouldn't be an every down DE right away, but he's got Seymour-type potential.