Day 3 Observations from Reiss

[Banjo]

I'm worried about Vereen. Another second round bust??

 

[RobertWeathers]

Hmmmmmm.......Let's see........I wonder what happened in 2009??????

Wes Welker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Welker was sidelined in Weeks 2 and 3 (against the New York Jets and Atlanta Falcons, respectively) with a knee injury; rookie wide receiver Julian Edelman took his place in the lineup.........In a Week 17 loss to the Houston Texans, Welker suffered a knee injury in the first quarter while running upfield after his only reception of the game. He tore his MCL and ACL in his left knee and was placed on injured reserve on January 6, 2010."

Julian Edelman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Edelman sat out the Patriots' Week 1 game against the Buffalo Bills with an ankle injury, but was activated for, and made his first career start in, the Patriots' 16–9 loss in Week 2 against the New York Jets, which was also the first game Wes Welker has missed since Welker became a Patriot in 2007. Edelman led all receivers with eight receptions for 98 yards, and added 38 yards on two kickoff returns and 2 yards on a punt return, for a total of 138 all-purpose yards.
Edelman broke his arm in the Patriots' 59–0 rout of the Tennessee Titans, and did not accompany the Patriots on their trip to London to play the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. At the time of his injury, Edelman was leading all rookies with 21 receptions.......
When Welker was sidelined for the season after tearing his ACL and MCL against the Houston Texans, Edelman was once again called on to fill Welker's role; Edelman caught 10 of the 15 passes thrown to him for 103 yards, the first 100-yard game of his NFL career. He finished the regular season with 37 receptions for 359 yards and one touchdown.

In the Patriots' Wild Card playoff loss to the Baltimore Ravens, Edelman caught six passes from Brady for 44 yards, including both of the Patriots' touchdowns. Edelman became the first rookie to score two receiving touchdowns in one postseason game since David Sloan did so for the Detroit Lions in the 1995–96 season."

___________________

Now, let's see if you can connect the dots here about what has been standing in Edelman's way.

Need there be anymore explanation?

I don't know how to be any clearer here. Yes, WW has blocked his path in the slot and he hasn't stood out in other roles at WR. We know he isn't a consistient deep threat and he isn't what the team had hoped for at the other WR positions. That makes him a one trick pony as a WR. Not good.

Lets re-set on my assertion because y'all are responding to me like I am saying he is a terrible receiver. Hes adequete. Hes just not better than who is in front of him and I think hes had a few too many drops and hes been out of position on some throws but thats my eyes vs yours....

Look at the numbers...

There are 6 WRs in camp who are better receivers than JE. More depth than 09, '10 and '11 combined. Slater is the #6 or #5 WR and isn't going anywhere. Now you have AH who is another safety net and 3 other TEs who can be TBs short targets.

There are a multitude of DBs better than JE. More quality depth than '09, '10, '11 combined. Slater is also a backup in the secondary.

He is a fine return man. Not great. Not terrible.

He is in the last year of his deal. BB traded Hobbs who was a fine return guy (check out his 08) but was facing a numbers problem.

Don't get me wrong. I like Edelman a ton. Just think he has an uphill battle making this team- which is the most talented since the 07 squad.

 

[JackBauer]

I'm worried about Vereen. Another second round bust??

You should probably chill out on that as it's too early to make any judgment there.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I'm worried about Vereen. Another second round bust??

Way too premature. Gotta see the kid play.

 

[Reckedtrek]

I'm worried about Vereen. Another second round bust??

Wow, it looks like it, huh? ANOTHER second rounder the Pats select turns out to be a flat out bust.

Did you eat paint chips as a kid?

 

[Reckedtrek]

I don't know how to be any clearer here. Yes, WW has blocked his path in the slot and he hasn't stood out in other roles at WR. We know he isn't a consistient deep threat and he isn't what the team had hoped for at the other WR positions. That makes him a one trick pony as a WR. Not good.

Lets re-set on my assertion because y'all are responding to me like I am saying he is a terrible receiver. Hes adequete. Hes just not better than who is in front of him and I think hes had a few too many drops and hes been out of position on some throws but thats my eyes vs yours....

Look at the numbers...

There are 6 WRs in camp who are better receivers than JE. More depth than 09, '10 and '11 combined. Slater is the #6 or #5 WR and isn't going anywhere. Now you have AH who is another safety net and 3 other TEs who can be TBs short targets.

There are a multitude of DBs better than JE. More quality depth than '09, '10, '11 combined. Slater is also a backup in the secondary.

He is a fine return man. Not great. Not terrible.

He is in the last year of his deal. BB traded Hobbs who was a fine return guy (check out his 08) but was facing a numbers problem.

Don't get me wrong. I like Edelman a ton. Just think he has an uphill battle making this team- which is the most talented since the 07 squad.

God forbid anyone ever suggest that sweet Julian get cut. 3/4's of this board acts like a mother bear protecting her young if someone posts something that is not a 100% glowing review of ol' JE.

 

[patfanken]

Generally speaking, there are two slot positions available on the field for any team that wishes to go that way. Edelman hasn't been good enough to get much time as either an outside receiver or one of two potential slot receivers, barring injury to Welker. Lord knows that Robert is probably not 100% correct, but he's probably not 100% wrong, either.

So the object of your post was use the fact that because the Pats don't run a 2 slot formation, Edelman must be an inadequate receiver. What a STRETCH - Have you COMPLETELY fallen in love with your own words to the point where you don't even read them anymore. The TWO slot formation??????? Did you ever consider that the reason why the Pats rarely use that formation is because it would put Gronk and Hernandez right where the defense wants them....on the SIDELINES. As it is, Hernandez takes that role when a 2nd "slot" receiver is needed.

But anyway thanks for the laugh, because this post was laugh out loud funny. And they say you don't have a sense of humor.

 

[patfanken]

I don't know how to be any clearer here. Yes, WW has blocked his path in the slot and he hasn't stood out in other roles at WR. We know he isn't a consistient deep threat and he isn't what the team had hoped for at the other WR positions. That makes him a one trick pony as a WR. Not good.

Lets re-set on my assertion because y'all are responding to me like I am saying he is a terrible receiver. Hes adequete. Hes just not better than who is in front of him and I think hes had a few too many drops and hes been out of position on some throws but thats my eyes vs yours....

Look at the numbers...

There are 6 WRs in camp who are better receivers than JE. More depth than 09, '10 and '11 combined. Slater is the #6 or #5 WR and isn't going anywhere. Now you have AH who is another safety net and 3 other TEs who can be TBs short targets.

There are a multitude of DBs better than JE. More quality depth than '09, '10, '11 combined. Slater is also a backup in the secondary.

He is a fine return man. Not great. Not terrible.

He is in the last year of his deal. BB traded Hobbs who was a fine return guy (check out his 08) but was facing a numbers problem.

Don't get me wrong. I like Edelman a ton. Just think he has an uphill battle making this team- which is the most talented since the 07 squad.

RW, I don't fault your logic here. There are between Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, Lloyd, Gaffney, Stallworth, and Branch there are actually 7 receivers who have put up better numbers than Edelman. But...all were in offenses where they got consistent snaps and looks. Plus the last 4 are all well into their 30's, and what they've done in the past isn't guaranteed for the future.

I would agree that the Pats are not going to keep 6 WRs. (not counting Slater) That would make no sense. So between Edelman, Gaffney, Stallworth and Branch, at least ONE is going to be released. And given those names, the one that stands out as the most obvious candidate is the guy who doesn't play special teams, has position INflexibility, and has diminishing skills. In other words, Deion Branch. The Pats need to get YOUNGER at WR not older. In fact I'm hoping against hope that Britt Davis shows well enough to unseat either Gaffney or Stallworth

 

[JackBauer]

In fact I'm hoping against hope that Britt Davis shows well enough to unseat either Gaffney or Stallworth

Hmmmm. Yeah, no.

 

[Deus Irae]

With the 2 TE's, the Patriots are not a heavy 2 slot offense. Well, aside from Aaron Hernandez in the slot!

Edelman is the best option on the roster to replace Welker if he goes down. Because he is a pretty good punt returner, that makes him a valuable player on the roster.

1.) Prior to the Gronk/Hernadez draft, there were plenty of opportunities for the heavy 2 slot offense. All of 2009 was available.

2.) Edelman in the slot would have allowed Gronk to get more of a rest.

3.) 2011 Gronk was not around until 2011. Edelman's been around since 2009.

I like Edelman. I've generally penciled him in as the WWW backup, as opposed to an overall WR. That doesn't mean that I should be blindly supportive of him and his past/future. He had 117 of 1134 offensive snaps in 2011

Patriots 2011 offensive snap count

and just 4 catches, despite the team really having only 2 WRs. Only the most clueless of homers would insist that was meaningless.

 

[Dingleberry]

1.)

I like Edelman. I've generally penciled him in as the WWW backup, as opposed to an overall WR. That doesn't mean that I should be blindly supportive of him and his past/future. He had 117 of 1134 offensive snaps in 2011

and just 4 catches, despite the team really having only 2 WRs. Only the most clueless of homers would insist that was meaningless.

And why did he have only 117 snaps? I don't see Welker sitting out too many plays.

Welker is important in this offense. Were he to go down, Edelman would be in his role immediately. And he proved as a rookie that he is pretty good at it. THAT is his place as a WR on this team.

Edelman is NOT a better receiver than Gaffney, Stallworth, Branch, etc. We get it. Edelman IS the next best option for the Welker role.

The Patriots are not going to ever focus on Edelman over Hernandez, Gronk, Welker, Lloyd, Gaffney, Branch/Stallworth. But Welker is so important that if he goes down, Edelman can plug in and the offense can go on close to what it was.

It's not that confusing.

 

[Dingleberry]

The Welker and Gronk roles are critical to this offense. Losing one of them reduces the offense (ya know like in the last game they played?).

The loss of Welker for a stretch of games is lessened a little by the presence of Edelman.

 

[shmessy]

3.) 2011 Gronk was not around until 2011.

Would you like to Google that one again?

 

[RobertWeathers]

I would agree that the Pats are not going to keep 6 WRs. (not counting Slater) That would make no sense. So between Edelman, Gaffney, Stallworth and Branch, at least ONE is going to be released. And given those names, the one that stands out as the most obvious candidate is the guy who doesn't play special teams, has position INflexibility, and has diminishing skills. In other words, Deion Branch. The Pats need to get YOUNGER at WR not older. In fact I'm hoping against hope that Britt Davis shows well enough to unseat either Gaffney or Stallworth

Thats what I keep going back and forth over, patfanken. I also think that Branch is in the fight of his life. Only reason I see him as not as much of a bubble player as JE is his positional flexiibility at WR (outside, inside, etc.). With that said the ST game is highly valued by BB and I don't intend to discount it.

 

[Deus Irae]

Would you like to Google that one again?

No need to, since I got it right. 2010 Gronk was not 2011 Gronk.

 

[shmessy]

He had 117 of 1134 offensive snaps in 2011

Patriots 2011 offensive snap count

and just 4 catches, despite the team really having only 2 WRs. Only the most clueless of homers would insist that was meaningless.

Hmmmmmm......now what happened in 2011..........what OTHER positions that he played could have taken a bite out of his offensive team participation?????? Gee, I guess he must have just been sitting on the bench 90+% of the game.

Your reliance on statistics without context is not fooling anyone.

 

[shmessy]

No need to, since I got it right. 2010 Gronk was not 2011 Gronk.

WHATTTTT?????


THAT is how you wriggle your way out of that?????

You've outdone yourself!!!!! That's classic!!!!

My God, you ARE Nathan Thurm!!!!!!

Well Defensive Back Edelman was not on the team in 2010 either. And 2010 Welker was way worse than 2009 Welker, but played in more games.

I have to hand it to you, Deus, you are entertainment.

 

[Deus Irae]

And why did he have only 117 snaps? I don't see Welker sitting out too many plays.

Well, the most obvious answer is that he's not good enough for the team to give him more.

Welker is important in this offense. Were he to go down, Edelman would be in his role immediately. And he proved as a rookie that he is pretty good at it. THAT is his place as a WR on this team.

Edelman has been WWW's backup. I've been saying that for years.

Edelman is NOT a better receiver than Gaffney, Stallworth, Branch, etc. We get it. Edelman IS the next best option for the Welker role.

The Patriots are not going to ever focus on Edelman over Hernandez, Gronk, Welker, Lloyd, Gaffney, Branch/Stallworth. But Welker is so important that if he goes down, Edelman can plug in and the offense can go on close to what it was.

There are those who think Hernandez can take the Welker role. Whether that's true or not, the issue isn't who might be the best Welker impersonator. The issue is whether keeping the little used Edelman (WR only, understanding he gets more use elsewhere) is worth more to the team than keeping a more established veteran WR5. Part of that goes to what he's done. As a WR, he's done very little in the past 2 seasons. With a team that goes empty backfield the way the Patriots do, that's meaningful.

It's not that confusing.

And, yet, people still argue against the obvious.

 

[Deus Irae]

WHATTTTT?????


You wrote: "Gronk was not around until 2011" - -and THAT is how you wriggle your way out of that?????

You've outdone yourself!!!!! That's classic!!!!

My God, you ARE Nathan Thurm!!!!!!

1.) Stop trolling. I'm still not biting.

2.) Go reread the posts. You seem to have missed something....

3.) 2011 Gronk was not around until 2011. Edelman's been around since 2009.

 

[RobertWeathers]

And why did he have only 117 snaps? I don't see Welker sitting out too many plays.

Welker is important in this offense. Were he to go down, Edelman would be in his role immediately. And he proved as a rookie that he is pretty good at it. THAT is his place as a WR on this team.

Edelman is NOT a better receiver than Gaffney, Stallworth, Branch, etc. We get it. Edelman IS the next best option for the Welker role.

The Patriots are not going to ever focus on Edelman over Hernandez, Gronk, Welker, Lloyd, Gaffney, Branch/Stallworth. But Welker is so important that if he goes down, Edelman can plug in and the offense can go on close to what it was.

It's not that confusing.

Need to look at it through a different lens, Dingle. All roster moves are intertwined. The projected loss of WW does not guarantee a roster spot for JE. Its all managed risk and personnel packages that they deem as being able to produce. If WW goes down, TB now needs to operate more out of a 2TE/2WR package with Lloyd/Gaffney/Branch or Stallworth set OR a 3TE (Fells, Gronk, AH) /2 WR set. You could just as easily do a 4WR1TE set. The combinations are endless.

My point: This team has a ridiculous number of options in the passing game that while losing WW would hurt, using Edelman just because he plays the slot instead of the other players I mentioned doesn't make sense.